Posts by Viviane

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Viviane

Viv, after all we've been through, you're like a stuck record, specific names, dates and events. And I repeat, it would be impossible to get first hand knowledge of these things unless you have a time machine.

Yet we do know things about history, specific names, dates, events, etc., just none of of Biblical prophecy. It's clearly not impossible to know what happened in the past.

And the Council of Jamnia was your straw man (Phizzy also assisted there). Did you not read the quote from Prof. Kahle's book? You're right, it's not important, but you made an issue out of it.

A straw man? You brought it up, so you made a straw man argument against what? Ifit's not important, why did you bring it up? Why, if you brought it up, would have an issue with someone commenting on it?

But you were so sure of yourself, I thought you had proof, but actually you've only got the opinion of the person that wrote the Wikipedia article. What an anticlimax!

I did provide proof. Reality is often not as exciting as fantasy. The guy made up the council, no proof has ever been found in the 143 years since he made it up.

Since we clearly can know what happened in the past with specific names, dates and events recorded with no time machine needed, can anyone provide an example of a Biblical prophecy coming true exactly as foretold, having predicted specific names, dates and events?

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Viviane

Are you not following the thread?

Of course I am. It's just that's I've said so many things, I wasn't sure which one confused you. Much like Biblical prophecy, you weren't specific and your reqest could have fit any number of posts.

You are so sure of yourself, "an outright fabrication," a sweeping statement indeed, for which I need proof.

I am sure of myself. Knowing the subject matter will do that to a person.

Here you go. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Jamnia

We aren't debating whether or not certain councils happened, so don't try to detail the conversation with debate regarding this, please. It's a hypothesis based on scant evidence talking about something different than the hypothesis.

The debate is whether or not there is a Biblical prophecy that came true with specific names, dates and events described with exact fulfillment.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Viviane

To which statement do you refer?

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Viviane

Right, let's stick to the facts. Outright fabrication you say? Why am I waiting for the facts?

You aren't waiting for facts. I never said anything about waiting for facts.

Can you show me a single, specific prophecy detailing names, dates and events that came true EXACTLY as foretold?

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Viviane

Viv, let's do some revision.

Or we can can stick with the facts.

Can you show me a single, specific prophecy detailing names, dates and events that came true EXACTLY as foretold? Regardless of what Josephus interpreted (citation required, BTW), he was still trying to say what it meant rather than let the text speak for itself.

Daniel as Scripture: At the Council of Jamnia, held after the A.D. 70 fall of Jerusalem to discuss whether certain books should be maintained as Scripture, the place of Daniel was clearly secure. From what we know of the deliberations of the Jewish religious leadership, Daniel’s place in the canon was never even a matter of discussion.

It cannot be pointed out enough, as Phizzy did, that the events you referred to are an outright fabrication and never happened.

7

Isnt prayer materialistic?

by Pinku in

prayer is often an expression of an if-then deal that tacitly denies equal rights to the other party.

the form and essence of most prayers go like this: if you do this favor to me, i will do this (pioneering, or put in more hours in the preaching) for you.

and if not...well, then, too bad for you, god, because you didn't deliver as was clearly outlined in the contract.. this shows religion has failed in its primary duty of reconnecting (religare, latin) man with god and fellow humans; and ironically has led to numerous divisions and disunity!

Viviane

He he will only answer those that have to do with your service to him.

What if someone prays for something materialistic and it just happens to align with God's will?

22

Spirituality is innate!

by Pinku in

on seeing the horrifying scene of world trade centre being attacked and knowing the pain of those trapped in and their loved ones, not only in new york but across the world millions of people turned into silence, prayer, and meditation.

they gathered on the streets, lit candles, wrote condolence, anything to feel solidarity and to spread a wave of love.

churches, temples, mosques and retreat centers were flooded with people seeking to raise their consciousness beyond the senseless killing to a higher, more noble plane.

Viviane

It is a silent acknowledgement of what has always been known, namely, that spiritual power can unite, and heal, and transcend the powers of darkness.

What is spiritual power? How is it measured? What is it made of? What darkness? What can it unite? Can it heal a missing limb?

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Viviane

Not my definition of prophecy, Viv. That's from Webster Dictionary.

But you claimed it as your understanding. Which is it?

Perhaps you should write them and inform them of the new definition.

Why would I do that? So far it's 100% accurate, no prophecy has come true. As that's also your understanding, we seem to all be in agreement.

No, even if I could come up with pinpoint chronology, names, places, and events in fine detail, you and most modern scholars will reject the evidence. Why? Because you do not believe in predictive prophesy.

But you can't, so it's 100% irrelevant what you wrongly presume I and others would think. It's pointless speculation. At least you admit you can't come up with a prophecy.

Nothing, and nobody is going to change that. End of story. If a dog bit you in the bum, you will not believe it.

What does a dog biting me in the bum have to do with your failure to come up with a prophecy?

You would reason: It could have been a hyena or a shark in disguise. So, straw man and changing the goal posts indeed...

Yes, you literally just made up a giant strawman, claiming that if you COULD do what you so have haven't, then I would change the goalposts. How incredibly dishonest of you.

Let's just stick with what we have today. I've not moved any goalposts, you simply can't come up with a prophecy that has been specifically fulfilled, so now you've moved your argument to "Well, if I could, you would just deny it". The simple fact is, that's not what's under discussion. The very definition you claimed as your own of prophecy admits it would never be fulfilled and, thus far, you've only confirmed the lack of prophecy.

Rather than complain about what you think I might do, I would suggest you look inward to your own arguments and discern why they are so easily dismantled.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Viviane

No, Viv, what I mean is, I understand prophecy to mean "a prediction of something to come" (Webster).

OK, so, by definition, a prophecy could never come true because then it wouldn't be "something to come". Maybe you want to re-think that?

However, you are asking for names, events, and places. I think you are confusing the evidence of Biblical prophecy and evidence given in a Court of Law.

Then you need to explain in a reasonable way why evidentiary standards should be different.

You want to apply scientific method to history. Good luck with that, observing something that happened 2000 years ago, and accumulating first-hand knowledge.

The scientific method is extensively used in history. It's would be required to even know if a prophecy came true or even what a prophecy said. The thing you reject, if you truly rejected it, would prevent you from even knowing what a prophecy said.

Can you prove that all prophecies were given after the fact?

I allowed that some were written prior. Strawman, much?

We discussed Daniel as a case in point. Even with a late date Daniel, certain future predictions were made that did in fact come true.

Daniel is known for a fact to be an almagamation of early and late writings. Nothing was predicted.

Even with Dan. 9 with its names, events, and places, you can't see it, because you don't want to see it. That's what I mean when I say, we can agree not to agree.

Christians argue amongst themselves what prophecy means. You can't even agree internally. Don't blame me for your group's lack of consistency and scholarship. If you are looking for who you disagree with, collectively go look in a mirror.

250

Biblical Prohecies That Came True?

by Viviane in

recently there have been several claims made regarding prophecies that came true.

i've not personally seen a prophecy that i would consider as having come true.

i would consider the following as the requirements to say something is a prophecy and evaluate whether or not it came true:.

Viviane

Viv, Isa 19:23-25 spiecifies that Assyria are the agreesors working as the hand of God, also in Isa 20:3-5 shows that the King of Assyria is at some time after Sargon who is speciefied in 20;1.

Isaiah 19:23-25 is failed prophecy. Isaiah 20:1 is history. How does that add up to a specific prophecy with names, dates, events, etc.?

Isa 17 does not spiecify by whom or when, however if you apply the same standard as used to asert historical facts then it can only apply to Assyria.

That's you adding into the text, not a specific prophecy with names, dates, etc., within the text.

I am saying that as it has been argued in the discussion about Daniel a late date appears to used to dismiss it as prophetic are we applying the same rule to the rest of prophecy because if that is the case there is evidently no prophecies as we can not date the last redaction of the texts before the oldest copies we have.

Daniel is known for a fact to be an amalgamation of early and late stories. You are correct, there are no "prophecies" that can be dated to prior to the events. I was letting that slide, but since you brought it up, you are correct. There is no way to prove any of these things were written before the events happened.