Posts by Viviane

67

Exactly what is the HISTORIC view of the DIVINE or of what being GOD meant long ago?

by TerryWalstrom in

the purpose of this topic is twofold.. first, any who are endlessly fascinated by scholarship, practised by genuine bible scholars, are urged by me to do what i did, subscribe to bart ehrman's blog.

the subscription money (as little as $3.95) goes entirely to charity.. secondarily, by broadening our view of the new testament era on up through two millennia to the present day, our knowledge of all things 'christian' is deepened to include actual knowledge (as opposed to watchtower fabrication.

by this i don't mean to imply you'll fall to your knees and get saved, but rather, you'll simply have facts to inform your present transitional mindset toward whatever end you finally choose.. now .

Viviane

I disagreed because monotheism doesn't allow for worship of other gods.

Ah, I see the problem, you don't do what monotheism means. Monotheism means the belief in only one god. Henotheism means worship of one or a primary god while believing others exist. The Israelites and Hebrew semitic peoples were clearly henotheistic even if they only worshiped a single god (or were supposed to, anyway).

I don't know what you mean when you say monotheism was a much later addition. It appears to me that israelite belief in and worship of only one God was on the agenda as far as God and moses were concerned

If they didn't believe in other gods, there would be no proclamation against worshiping them. If no one had ever stolen anything, there would be no laws against it. If no one had ever used credit, there would be no credit laws or counseling.

Similarly, there were prohibitions against worshiping other gods and angels precisely because the Hebrew semitic peoples and Israelites believed in them. Baal was a great example.

(I'm not disputing the fact that the israelites did fall into false worship but, monotheisim had already been introduced and the first commandment didn't allow for worship of other gods as you suggest)

Well, false or not is a theological argument, one we aren't having. Either way, the first commandment NEVER EVER says not to worship other gods, just worship Yahweh before all others (or no worship together, depending on your view). Never, not once says "you can't believe in other gods".

69

Science still doesn't have the answers on how life first appeared

by EndofMysteries in

since so many athiests in this thread, and since i'm going to college, i was curious if what i would learn in biology would change my thoughts and show that life clearly and easily spontaneously happened.

just looking up the origins of dna or rna there is nothing conclusive.

for example, scientists today are able to manipulate life.

Viviane

So, anyway, there is no requirement of science to test every possible idea. A person may choose to go that route, but it is certainly not part of the scientific method.

67

Exactly what is the HISTORIC view of the DIVINE or of what being GOD meant long ago?

by TerryWalstrom in

the purpose of this topic is twofold.. first, any who are endlessly fascinated by scholarship, practised by genuine bible scholars, are urged by me to do what i did, subscribe to bart ehrman's blog.

the subscription money (as little as $3.95) goes entirely to charity.. secondarily, by broadening our view of the new testament era on up through two millennia to the present day, our knowledge of all things 'christian' is deepened to include actual knowledge (as opposed to watchtower fabrication.

by this i don't mean to imply you'll fall to your knees and get saved, but rather, you'll simply have facts to inform your present transitional mindset toward whatever end you finally choose.. now .

Viviane

The part that needs a citation is the assertion that the church invented it.

That was your own reference. The one you said was reputable.

as far as El being the Ugarit pantheon father. This was never disputed by me. Fact: this God was Abrahams God known as Elshaddai. The God was later known as yahweh

Absolutely not true. Yahweh was around when El was, only later, when Yahweh became the primary god for the Hebrew semitic peoples was he backported to El.

This God had at least one prophet he spoke to who wasn't in the tribe of Israel. In numbers 22 balaam lives in Pethor. This suggests that the God had other prophets in the area who weren't Israelites. so it would seem there were others besides Israelites who accepted the God El as their God. Just because the gods worship was changed or evolved does not make it a new God.

Well... no. That doesn't even make sense. What IS true is that that story was written LONG after the purported events were supposed to have happened (which, by the way, most certainly did NOT happen). Yahweh have already been backported to be the supreme god by then, mixed with El.

It is an inescapable FACT that El and Yahweh were separated and that Yahweh eventually, in Hebrew semitic culture, was fused with El, but ONLY there. That is a well supported and demonstrable thing, your own sources agree.

In arguing this I would submit that the surrounding nations evolved the God into something completely different from its original preserved by Melchizadek. So that THEY took on a new God, while Israel preserved the original.

Except that's the opposite of every piece of evidence, including your sources that you said were reputable.

But this is a theological argument, not a historical one.

No, that's a historical argument. A historical argument, such as this, is how gods evolved in culture. A theological argument would be whether or not that god was real.

From history we can assert that El was Abrahams God, that Melchizadek was this gods priest and this priest blessed Abraham. Then Abraham passed the worship of this God alone onto his descendants.

That's fine. History also shows that the Hebrew semitic peoples also backported their God into El, making him more important and powerful than he was (and also divorcing his wife).

catholics worship differently. Jehovah's witnesses worship differently. Protestants worship differently. Do they worship the same God? Yes.

That's not a modern day example. At all.

67

Exactly what is the HISTORIC view of the DIVINE or of what being GOD meant long ago?

by TerryWalstrom in

the purpose of this topic is twofold.. first, any who are endlessly fascinated by scholarship, practised by genuine bible scholars, are urged by me to do what i did, subscribe to bart ehrman's blog.

the subscription money (as little as $3.95) goes entirely to charity.. secondarily, by broadening our view of the new testament era on up through two millennia to the present day, our knowledge of all things 'christian' is deepened to include actual knowledge (as opposed to watchtower fabrication.

by this i don't mean to imply you'll fall to your knees and get saved, but rather, you'll simply have facts to inform your present transitional mindset toward whatever end you finally choose.. now .

Viviane

your interpretation allows for worship of other gods however the premise of monotheism does not.

The Bible shows that, at most, the Israelites and Hebrews were henotheistic. Monotheism was a much later addition. Hence why they had many gods, a continuum of divinity, men becoming god and gods becoming me.

67

Exactly what is the HISTORIC view of the DIVINE or of what being GOD meant long ago?

by TerryWalstrom in

the purpose of this topic is twofold.. first, any who are endlessly fascinated by scholarship, practised by genuine bible scholars, are urged by me to do what i did, subscribe to bart ehrman's blog.

the subscription money (as little as $3.95) goes entirely to charity.. secondarily, by broadening our view of the new testament era on up through two millennia to the present day, our knowledge of all things 'christian' is deepened to include actual knowledge (as opposed to watchtower fabrication.

by this i don't mean to imply you'll fall to your knees and get saved, but rather, you'll simply have facts to inform your present transitional mindset toward whatever end you finally choose.. now .

Viviane

Your reference does not say they were distinct, it says they were the same and that it was Abrahams God.

Ah, I see. The problem is that you are seeing what you want to see. No, it doesn't. It specifically says that Yahweh evolved from EL. Remember, Evolved from and change into with a different name and divorced from his wife by the time of the Israelites isn't at all "the same as". It's quite plain to see, from yours and other reputable references, that the Israelites worshipped Yahweh as we as other gods, Yahweh have evolved over centuries from a local minor God to have taken on the properties of EL, with writers eventually merging the two.

In the rest of the Semitic peoples religions, however, El and Yahweh remained distinct. That merging and evolution was a later event that only happened within the Hebrew culture (Abraham wasn't Hebrew, BTW).

Actually I did it for you, this quote is confirmed by literally everything. Spend as much time as you want with Google, by as many books as you want - if they are credible sites and sources they will agree:

OK, let's see what it says...Modern scholarship increasingly sees the phrase not as one genuinely used by Jesus but as a one put in his mouth by the early Church.

So, by your own source that you cite as reputable, to the point that any reputable source would agree, it's a phrase used by Jesus but a lie later added by the Church. I would absolutely agree, that does make it unique and different from other OT uses.

69

Science still doesn't have the answers on how life first appeared

by EndofMysteries in

since so many athiests in this thread, and since i'm going to college, i was curious if what i would learn in biology would change my thoughts and show that life clearly and easily spontaneously happened.

just looking up the origins of dna or rna there is nothing conclusive.

for example, scientists today are able to manipulate life.

Viviane

Viviane: Very ample, much panties, such wow, why so anger? Everything = misrepresentation, plz no, your knowledge such science, very good, forum great benefit, such honestly, intellectual, super geniusly, rewarding talk, wow.

Goodbye dear. I've really no more time for your .... whatever issue it is you have that's causing you to chase me around and act like a fool.

69

Science still doesn't have the answers on how life first appeared

by EndofMysteries in

since so many athiests in this thread, and since i'm going to college, i was curious if what i would learn in biology would change my thoughts and show that life clearly and easily spontaneously happened.

just looking up the origins of dna or rna there is nothing conclusive.

for example, scientists today are able to manipulate life.

Viviane

Viv: next time you want to point out something dishonest i wrote i suggest you do so with an actual quote then lol.
why are you so hostile?

Ample quote have been provided of your misrepresentation of my words. With regard to your question, put on your big girl panties if you want to have an honest, adult conversation. I'm not here to coddle you when you lie.

67

Exactly what is the HISTORIC view of the DIVINE or of what being GOD meant long ago?

by TerryWalstrom in

the purpose of this topic is twofold.. first, any who are endlessly fascinated by scholarship, practised by genuine bible scholars, are urged by me to do what i did, subscribe to bart ehrman's blog.

the subscription money (as little as $3.95) goes entirely to charity.. secondarily, by broadening our view of the new testament era on up through two millennia to the present day, our knowledge of all things 'christian' is deepened to include actual knowledge (as opposed to watchtower fabrication.

by this i don't mean to imply you'll fall to your knees and get saved, but rather, you'll simply have facts to inform your present transitional mindset toward whatever end you finally choose.. now .

Viviane

There are reasons the Greek ohrase was unique to Christ.

Such as?

Also your reference you quoted said the exact same thing I said. So I'm glad we agree now, but it was a very long journey getting here.

So you're now saying that Yahweh and El were distinct except for later Hebrew religions where El was transformed into Yahweh?

69

Science still doesn't have the answers on how life first appeared

by EndofMysteries in

since so many athiests in this thread, and since i'm going to college, i was curious if what i would learn in biology would change my thoughts and show that life clearly and easily spontaneously happened.

just looking up the origins of dna or rna there is nothing conclusive.

for example, scientists today are able to manipulate life.

Viviane

Argue with you? Sheesh, why would you think I would bother with that? I'm just pointing out how you either ignorantly or dishonestly attempted to misrepresent what I wrote.

If you don't like that, you're free to stop posting incorrect things.

67

Exactly what is the HISTORIC view of the DIVINE or of what being GOD meant long ago?

by TerryWalstrom in

the purpose of this topic is twofold.. first, any who are endlessly fascinated by scholarship, practised by genuine bible scholars, are urged by me to do what i did, subscribe to bart ehrman's blog.

the subscription money (as little as $3.95) goes entirely to charity.. secondarily, by broadening our view of the new testament era on up through two millennia to the present day, our knowledge of all things 'christian' is deepened to include actual knowledge (as opposed to watchtower fabrication.

by this i don't mean to imply you'll fall to your knees and get saved, but rather, you'll simply have facts to inform your present transitional mindset toward whatever end you finally choose.. now .

Viviane

The religion of the hebrews sprang from encounters with God. In their efforts to conceptualize for themselves Who this God they encountered was, what He did, what He would do etc. they drew on local mythologies to express themselves.

That's a theological argument, NOT a historical argument.

The God they encountered is creator of earth, God of the earth and He chose the hebrews. Some of these actions in time resemble actions attributed to a local god named Yahweh...that NAME and what it means is a perfect expression of who their one God is. That's how Yahweh can pre-date the semetic religion from which he sprang.

No, what that means is that actions attributed to El were LATER attributed to Yahweh, not that Yahweh exists before he existed.

one reason I think that the commandment to worship no other God before Me means in my presence or in front of me (instead of your interpretation, worship Me as the highest God of many gods you can worship) is in the israelite sacrificial system itself.

Not worshiping other gods in Yahweh's presence also allows for worship of other gods. Either interpretation admits and allows for worship of other gods.