Posts by Viviane

53

Spirituality

by Jonathan Drake in

if you are a current practitioner of some religious faith i would appreciate it if you abstained from this thread entirely.

im curious if anyone has had what could be discribed as a spiritual experience.

i'm currently reading sam harris book waking up and it's very good so far.

Viviane

But Harris is defining spirituality as (if I understand correctly) the effort to find ones "self". Based on his own experience he makes a compelling argument that this one aspect of eastern philosophy, the notion that there is no such duality as self and object because there is no self, is acceptable and real.

I still don't know what that has to do with "spirit", through. Finding one's self or having new emotional experiences and seeking to understand yourself better has nothing to do with invisible, undetectable stuff that angels are supposedly made of. At that point, "spirituality" is a metaphor. Sam has just replaced one idea with a confusing word.

its a very interesting book. I highly suggest it, and would appreciate your educated opinion on it.

I am reading another book right now, when I am done I will try to pick this one up.

25

Watchtower Society and Science

by FusionTheism in

is the governing body's methods and practices all that much different from the way scientists work?.

some prominent scientists and big media in the 1970's were pushing imminent disaster from global cooling.

now its global warming and they all sweep the global cooling fiasco under the rug and act like it was just one or two rogue individuals.. other examples can be given: scientists being wrong on the eternal universe, black holes, whether eggs or coffee are healthy or harmful, presenting fake fossils, etc.

Viviane

So scientists who talk to magazines or are featured in magazines are "poor sources of information?"

I said nothing of the sort.

Which scientists are "good" sources of information, and why should I believe you?

I never said you should.

25

Watchtower Society and Science

by FusionTheism in

is the governing body's methods and practices all that much different from the way scientists work?.

some prominent scientists and big media in the 1970's were pushing imminent disaster from global cooling.

now its global warming and they all sweep the global cooling fiasco under the rug and act like it was just one or two rogue individuals.. other examples can be given: scientists being wrong on the eternal universe, black holes, whether eggs or coffee are healthy or harmful, presenting fake fossils, etc.

Viviane

Don't scientists often use the same claim of "the light (knowledge) getting brighter" even while they do "tacking", sometimes going back-and-forth between old and new ideas?

No.

So you're agreeing that the popular scientists who appear in magazines like People, Time, and Newsweek are like the Governing Body?

No. He's saying that's a poor source of information for science reporting and you will likely to know less after reading their articles than before.

14

A checklist for Lurking JW's.

by cappytan in

dear lurking jw's:.

if you were in a cult, how would you know?

cults don't call themselves cults.

Viviane

BITE.

53

Spirituality

by Jonathan Drake in

if you are a current practitioner of some religious faith i would appreciate it if you abstained from this thread entirely.

im curious if anyone has had what could be discribed as a spiritual experience.

i'm currently reading sam harris book waking up and it's very good so far.

Viviane

Until someone explains what "spiritual" means I cannot answer the question.

14

The Kingdom of God -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

depending on the context, the phrase "kingdom of god" can have a few different simplified meanings:.

1: the authority of god manifesting itself through miracles, love, or judgment.. 2: the authority of god in people's lives.. 3: the lord jesus, the 12 apostles, and others who will sit on thrones and wear crowns in the new heavens and the new earth.. 4: the 1,000 year reign of christ on earth (if that is literal instead of symbolic).. 5: (in the old testament:) the nation of israel under godly kings such as david or josiah.. there are a few passages of scripture i can think of which could support the idea that the kingdom is made up of those who rule in heaven, as opposed to those who live on earth.

these are matthew 11:11-13, john 3:13, 31, acts 2:34. delving into those scriptures will be the subject of a future post.. as always, the immediate context of a passage, and the context of that particular book as a whole, helps determine the meaning of the phrase..

Viviane

There are accepted rules that scholars and experts in the fields of Bible/book research use to determine which parts are symbolic, which are poetic, which are apocalyptic, which are narrative/prose, which are songs, etc.

Where did these rules come from? From God? If so, how did he communicate them? If he did communicate them and is a spirit, how does that work? Do they have any proof God has bestowed them with this authority? Who are these scholars? Do they agree on this? Where are the rules and can I see them? If so, how can I determine that they are valid?

There is nothing magical or mystical about it. I never say anything without checking it against the scholars and experts and their accepted rules of exegesis and interpretation.

See above. All you've done is change every question I had to be about them. Why do you trust them? Have you verified anything they've said? Since not one prophecy in the Bible has ever come true, on what basis are you placing your trust in them? Have they been able to define spirit? What objective evidence have they presented to show there is any reason to trust them? How do they explain the fact that they are adding to the Bible rather than letting the text shine through on it's own merits?

Now, as far as what "spirit" is, the Bible simply defines it as unseen forces/beings which have a different "body" than humans do. Anything beyond that knowledge is a mystery.

What type of force? Thermal? Electrical? Mechanical? If it applies a force or is capable of applying a force, then it must be physical or at least interact with the physical world so it should be something we can detect. Spirit creatures were often visible in the Bible, so they are alive. How can a force be "alive", what kind of "body" do they have? Does this body need to eat? Do they poop? Brush their teeth? Why is it a mystery? What haven't these scholars figured it out? If there is no answer to such a basic question, why should anyone trust anything anyone says on this?

The book of Revelation tells us it is a book of "symbols" or "signs," so we know it's symbolic for sure.

There is a stop sign outside of my house, does that make stopping a symbolic act? Are you saying signs and symbols are the same? Is sign language symbolic?Signs and symbols are both real things that can have real meanings, how do you know this is not the case with Revelation? Is there a decoder guide from god we haven't seen? How do you explain this scholars all make false predictions based on Revelation and the current disagreement they have currently?

This isn't rocket science or magic here.

Agreed. Rocket science work and we know Harry Potter is fictional.

14

The Kingdom of God -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

depending on the context, the phrase "kingdom of god" can have a few different simplified meanings:.

1: the authority of god manifesting itself through miracles, love, or judgment.. 2: the authority of god in people's lives.. 3: the lord jesus, the 12 apostles, and others who will sit on thrones and wear crowns in the new heavens and the new earth.. 4: the 1,000 year reign of christ on earth (if that is literal instead of symbolic).. 5: (in the old testament:) the nation of israel under godly kings such as david or josiah.. there are a few passages of scripture i can think of which could support the idea that the kingdom is made up of those who rule in heaven, as opposed to those who live on earth.

these are matthew 11:11-13, john 3:13, 31, acts 2:34. delving into those scriptures will be the subject of a future post.. as always, the immediate context of a passage, and the context of that particular book as a whole, helps determine the meaning of the phrase..

Viviane

Why do so many atheists, who maybe, barely, make up 9% or 10% of the population, consider themselves the only ones who have the truth and are superior to everyone else?

I would love to see evidence of that. I would also appreciate it if you didn't attempt to tell others how they think and feel without direct, firsthand knowledge of that.

I've always wondered that?

OK, do you wonder that or are you asking us if you wonder that?

74

Is Prophecy important?

by EA916 in

hello, i am certainly new to all of this.

i have recently been studying the prophecy's, and i was wondering if they are of any importance at all?

Viviane

S all this went through my mind while the CO continued his talk. I came back to the talk when instead of speaking of the time of the end he said the ZONE of the end. This clinched my ideas above because I had also just finished reading Scott Atran's book In God's we Trust wherein Atran describes religions as talking to the spectre of existential anxiety to demonstrate how one's own particular religion can alleviate it and both, the CO and Atran, utilize geography terms to convey their ideas.

So far you've said nothing that would in any way indicate this time is different than any other. The word zone not only doesn't clinch anything, it doesn't do anything.

Viv you and I are always going to find ourselves opposing each other for the simple fact that I am fairly convinced that the way religion tackles existential anxiety will always grip the imagination.

No, it's because you are aren't providing evidence for anything you say.

14

The Kingdom of God -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

depending on the context, the phrase "kingdom of god" can have a few different simplified meanings:.

1: the authority of god manifesting itself through miracles, love, or judgment.. 2: the authority of god in people's lives.. 3: the lord jesus, the 12 apostles, and others who will sit on thrones and wear crowns in the new heavens and the new earth.. 4: the 1,000 year reign of christ on earth (if that is literal instead of symbolic).. 5: (in the old testament:) the nation of israel under godly kings such as david or josiah.. there are a few passages of scripture i can think of which could support the idea that the kingdom is made up of those who rule in heaven, as opposed to those who live on earth.

these are matthew 11:11-13, john 3:13, 31, acts 2:34. delving into those scriptures will be the subject of a future post.. as always, the immediate context of a passage, and the context of that particular book as a whole, helps determine the meaning of the phrase..

Viviane

Basically those are symbolic or anthropomorphic ways of attempting to express truths about the invisible spirit realm.

But what is the spirit realm? What is spirit? What is it made of? Is it something physical that a crown that sit on? If not, how will they wear crowns or sit on a chair? How can we tell if something made of spirit is near us? Can we detect it? If not, why not?

My best guess on "New Heavens" would be because Revelation says Satan and the demons are vanished from the Heavens, so now they are "made new."

Someone you don't like leaving your house doesn't mean your house is "made new". Is that purely symbolic? If so, is it simply a feeling? How can spirit creatures have feeling since feelings are a chemical reaction in physical body? Does that mean spirit creatures are physical? If so, why can't we detect them? If not, how can they interact with us?

My best guess on "New Heavens" would be because Revelation says Satan and the demons are vanished from the Heavens, so now they are "made new."

But that's not what the Bible says. It says they will wear crowns. Are you disagreeing with the Bible? Are you telling us that it's poetic? If so, how do you know? Do you have special knowledge unavailable to the rest of us? Have you been gifted from God with the the ability to tell us what is symbolic or not? If so, how can you prove this to us? Do we just have to trust you? Can you demonstrate those abilities? If you don't have those abilities gifted from God, why should we trust you? If you do disagree with the Bible, are you saying it's wrong?

So many questions... I look forward to your answers.

14

The Kingdom of God -- Simplified Suggestion

by FusionTheism in

depending on the context, the phrase "kingdom of god" can have a few different simplified meanings:.

1: the authority of god manifesting itself through miracles, love, or judgment.. 2: the authority of god in people's lives.. 3: the lord jesus, the 12 apostles, and others who will sit on thrones and wear crowns in the new heavens and the new earth.. 4: the 1,000 year reign of christ on earth (if that is literal instead of symbolic).. 5: (in the old testament:) the nation of israel under godly kings such as david or josiah.. there are a few passages of scripture i can think of which could support the idea that the kingdom is made up of those who rule in heaven, as opposed to those who live on earth.

these are matthew 11:11-13, john 3:13, 31, acts 2:34. delving into those scriptures will be the subject of a future post.. as always, the immediate context of a passage, and the context of that particular book as a whole, helps determine the meaning of the phrase..

Viviane

What is the new heavens? What is wrong with the old heavens? If they are spirit, how to they wear crowns? What is the spirit made of? the crowns? How do we determine what is a miracle? God's judgement?

So many questions...I look forward to your answers.