Posts by Viviane

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Viviane

Oh the irony. Viv please examine your post history, each thread you attach yourself to becomes "childish drama"

OK, I don't think you know what irony is, but, whatever. It's hardly my fault if people that can't defend their claims or who make faulty arguments attempt to make everything personal.

Further irony, many posts ago Cofty said he would not respond to anymore of Slims comments. Well then my suggestion Cofty, is that you start a new thread with the same interesting "O.P" but follow your convictions ,and don't comment on Slims posts.

Again, that's not irony, but whatever. Perhaps you should let Cofty post as he sees fit?

It's possible ex-witnesses are further forward than awake magazine science, and can be trusted to compare and contrast your O.Ps and alternative viewpoints without the need of ugly confrontations.

The problem is that people get tied up emotionally with their argument. Separate the two and it's all fine. It's when there is a perception that attacking an argument is the same as attacking the person that there is a problem. If someone can't separate the two and starts making a personal attack, it's not everyone else's fault but their own.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Viviane

Viviane, I know you miss me, my instant replys and love me, but please understand there is not a 10 minute rule to reply to your posts. My opinion and answers will be more valued if you give me time, not only to come up with answers, but time to think how you will take those words, and misconstrue them to your advantage.

So now you give terrible answers and are pretending it's my fault?

No thanks, I've already got kids, I don't need to deal any more childish emotional drama.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Viviane

I think on this thread we have asked football questions and got football answers back. We can argue for hours, it's not just football it's, tennis to tennis, but that doesn't mean a collective answer is right.

Huh? Not sure what you are trying to say. Maybe because the discussion is using the same terms that.. something something?
Just because a term is used that is related to the subject doesn't mean the term is used correctly. It would be like calling pass interference on a running play (in American football) or icing on intentional high sticking (in hockey). Just because the terms are related to the same subject doesn't mean they are relevant.

Nicolaou, then please come up with a single point that Cofy and Vivianne have made that fits the same criteria. Rather telling. Don't you think?

Wait, so you think that you being called out for not being able to come up with a single good point by SBF AFTER you claimed he made some is the same as attempting to call someone out for an answer they have given in response to a claim they (as far as I know) never made?
Really?

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Viviane

Now Viv we may end up putting our boxing gloves on:-And I think I may be knocked out. But you asked the good points slim has made by posting and I gave my answer.

Your "answer" didn't say anything so, no, it really wasn't an answer. It was a response, but not an answer.

So, no good points raised by SBF, got it.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Viviane

What, specifically, do you think are good points raised by slim, rebel and why?

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Viviane

Oh SBF! Don't be silly! You don't need to be embarrassed for being vague and then lashing out. It's all you can do when facts, reality, evidence, grammar, honesty, language and logic aren't on your side. Well, all you can do if you aren't adult enough to admit any of that.

You should be no more embarrassed than a puppy that wets itself when confronted by a kitten.

/Cleanup on aisle 3

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Viviane

It also says that scientists may succeed in creating life at some point in the future.
Their argument is that this would only go to prove that intelligent life is required to make life. Life can't arise spontaneously.
The WT does not teach there is a "theological barrier" to scientists creating life as Cofty claimed. In fact it says the opposite, that scientists may succeed some day.

*sigh*... I know logic is hard, but try.

First, they don't say that scientist may succeed one day. They say "Similarly, if scientists ever did construct a cell, they would accomplish something truly amazing—but would they prove that the cell could be made by accident?"

That does not in any way say "may", it says "if". It's similar to saying "Humans will never be able to shoot laser beams from their eyes, but if they could, that would be terrible." The latter hypothetical doesn't negate the former.

How do we know that "if" and "may" are different? Try replacing them in a sentence. "If you go outside, then you will be cold" doesn't make sense as "May you go outside, then you will be cold". Similarly, "you can go to the movies if you finish your homework" doesn't make sense as "you can go to the movies may you finish your homework".

The hypothetical "if" (not may) does not negate their teaching that God is the only source of life.

Evidence is so inconvenient.

LIFE COMES ONLY FROM LIFE. “With you [God] is the source of life.”—Psalm 36:9.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201501/origin-of-life/

PROTIP: If you are going to link to a doc to prove your point, actually know what it says and what the words mean.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Viviane

viv I'm actually quite pleased that you don't think I can construct an argument. who would want to listen to your advice anyway?

Smart people. In point of fact, I get paid quite handsomely for my advice on how to think about things, solve complex problems, come up with creative solutions to big problems and do it ensuring that we're not creating more problems. It involves math, science, philosophy, politics, knowledge of various regulatory agencies, understanding politics and human interactions and constantly updating education and knowledge on all of those topics.

In terms of hobbies, I enjoy astronomy, physics, cosmology and geology as the subjects I read up on daily or weekly.Wrong in saying JWs have a "theological barrier" to scientists ever creating life. Because their own literature says scientists may succeed at some point in the future. If Cofty can't admit a factual mistake as simple as that, what hope is there for more complex ideas?

Evidence is so inconvenient.

LIFE COMES ONLY FROM LIFE. “With you [God] is the source of life.”—Psalm 36:9.

https://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/g201501/origin-of-life/

If Cofty can't admit a factual mistake as simple as that, what hope is there for more complex ideas?

Well, there is the hope that you could address your dishonesty or demonstrable misunderstanding of philosophy, science and logic.

405

Origin of Life

by cofty in

in recent years significant progress has been made in solving the question of how life originated on our planet.. how do you think theists will respond when it finally happens?

as a former christian i know my reaction would have been something like "well that just goes to show that it takes intelligent life to make life", but for two reasons that defense doesn't work.. firstly it would prove that life is not an ethereal force that originates with god.

there is no 'ghost in the machine', no elan vital.

Viviane

Viv, I used "computation" in the context of human thought. It was you who applied it to computers.

Ah, so I what I wrote was correct in any context.

If a soul is a thing, it does not need to be a physical thing, in order to be a thing

I never claimed otherwise. Please stop making strawman arguments.

Please see https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/279886/what-spirit-exactly for a long discussion on what this "thing" is which no one can explain.

You are presupposing reductionist materialism, and therefore begging the question. (Yeah, yeah, you will say I'm wrong, I don't know what begging the question is, and I'm dishonest. There I'll save you the bother. Predictably what you won't do is supply any argument or evidence for any assertion you make)

No, I asked what this thing is with some helpful investigative questions. The questions did not dictate the answer. And no need to save me time, it's always a pleasure to help people see where they don't understand what "begging the question" means or are being dishonest.

It's nice that you're admitting it now, though.

Non-physical things do exist, such as numbers and thoughts. The question is not whether non-material things can exist, the question is whether a "soul" is among them or not.

Explain now "34" is a non-physical thing. The concept of 34 exists in our brains, a physical thing, and if you refer to 34 physical things, there are 34 physical things, with the number 34 being mathematical shorthand (that again, exists in our brains, in books, papers, computers, etc.) for reality, a physical thing.

My suspicion is that the view held by viv and cofty is that the whole argument re origin of life stands or falls if there is one small mistake somewhere in argument.

I can't speak for Cofty, but wrong again regarding me. OTOH, you would have to construct an argument to test that. I await the day you do so.

It's refreshing to see you admit your dishonesty. Shame to see you won't step up and deal with it.

609

What is spirit, exactly?

by Viviane in

i've always wondered that.

recently i asked that question on another thread and didn't really get ananswer.

cofty made an excellent point that we often hear what it isn't, but that really isn't useful.. so, what is it?

Viviane

Looks like it's time to see if there is an answer to this question again.

Summary so far:

it's a metaphor for breath, emotions, imagination, energy, air, water, power, force, memory, photosynthesis, attitude, consciousness
We can't explain it
Beyond our ability to understand it
Human magnetic attraction (undefined)
Different levels of vibratory energy (undefined)
Force of life (undefined)
A word with multiple meanings

I bring this back up because it was recently suggested that at some point in the past, humanoids were given a soul or spirit by some creature to make them human and they are the MRCA of all living humans.

So, what is a soul? What is spirit? Anyone?