Ex-JW atheists

by Vienna 19 Replies latest jw friends

  • Vienna
    Vienna

    I know there are lots of atheists on the board, so I'm curious what attracted you to becoming a JW in the beginning. Personally, I feel a bond with all ex-JWs (and to those of you doubting) since we have gone through the same things.

    So my question is not being sarastic, but I'm curious as to why you are where you are. Since we left a religion where we devoted our lives to God (or felt like we were doing so), I'm wondering if you deep down know that God exists (I mean, you had to believe that as a JW) and now you're just to hurt to find Him after the WT lies, or if you never really believed in Him in the first place.

    After being in the JWs, I knew there had to be an opposite to the lies and never felt right until I found it. So, again, my question is curiosity about then and now beliefs/never belief in God.

    I hope the question isn't confusing...share your thoughts please!

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    I find a struggle develops between no longer accepting any human interpretations of christianity and no longer accepting christianity period.

    It is a struggle because under conscience, one must surrender credence in order to develop a faith in a religion or in a discipline of science.

    Given the enormous amount of knowledge we do NOT possess about our existence and our universe, it is difficult after having suffered in and out of human organizations and institutions to voluntarily surrender anymore!

  • Fredhall
    Fredhall

    Vienna,

    If they didn't look at those trashy apostate web-sites and read those filthy apostate books then they would not be in that condition right now.

  • ChuckD
    ChuckD

    Having been "born into" the organization, I was never given that choice. Like most witnesses, I very much believed in God and everything else that those whom I trusted taught me. But when I began to discover how untrue most of their teachings were, I began to look for proof - or at least some evidence - before believing anything else. And I found there to be very little evidence to support a belief in God.

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    FredHall:

    Were you born a JW? I was not. In my homeland (Sicily), although there are numerically more mosques than churches, Catholicism dominates the religious landscape.

    This is because during the end of the middle ages, inquisitions and radical clergy tyrannized the population into papalism. I am relating this information to lay a basis for my reply to your post concerning the "condition" of people who read alternative literature and consider differing viewpoints.

    Before I begin this dialogue with you, I offer some conditions. Namely, that we proceed as interested and mature adults, agreeing to refrain from sinking into the mire of slander, mudslinging and personal attacks when presentations and opinions of facts conflict.

    I offer that conflicting information should be handled through rebuttals and references. Is this possible? Can you agree?

    If so, may we be edified.

  • bboyneko
    bboyneko
    Vienna,
    If they didn't look at those trashy apostate web-sites and read those filthy apostate books then they would not be in that condition right now.

    Fredhall you are so right. I am going to go wash my eyes with brillo pads and anti-bacterial soap..I feel so dirty :( Fredhall's hairballs are cleaner than the grime and defilement that is the apostate literature I have read.

    It is a contamination, a defoedation and soilure upon this earth. An abomination a literary fetor, a decay and putrescence upon us all as a human society. A putrefaction, a vile corruption like a mallicious mold or dry rot upon our very minds.

    I mean, totally grody to the max this squalid, lutose, slammocky, and sozzly poison has ruined my sprituality.

    What excrementitious filth...what..what was I talking about? Oh yeah! Fredhall's kitty litter man that $%#^ is vile! someone change that stuff before it starts talking!
    -dan

  • Mindchild
    Mindchild

    Hi Vienna,

    I thought this was a pretty good question actually. Sometimes we really need to smack ourselves across the side of the head to make sure we are not just drifting in the sea of mental enculturation. So, just briefly, my two cents worth...

    I was raised from birth into the JW ideology. My parents, grandparents, sisters, and entire extended family were at that time (a little over 40 years ago) 2nd generation JW's. Went through the typical miserable primary school upbringing as the "unwanted JW" and it was drummed into me that the entire world was a horrible and hostile place (outside of JW land.) After graduating high school (with the absolute minimal grade point average) I did the pioneering trip and got into the ideology big time. Had long talks with God (one way of course) both day and night, bought the whole ball of wax, hook, line and sinker.

    Probably the first crack that appeared in this rosy conceptual reality was the refusal of a bible study I had to really accept the existence of God in his own life which of course led me into trying to prove to him that there was ample evidence that God existed. Well, this guy was an ex-school teacher and gently showed me one by one that my arguements were a pile of B.S. and eventually I started asking the elders and other pioneers in my local congregation some hard questions which in turn caused the hair on the back of their necks to stand up. I was told in no uncertain terms, to drop this study immediately and dismiss any doubts about God's existence and that we didn't need any intellectual proof to know this and that higher knowledge was simply a trick of the Devil's to get people away from the Bible.

    This didn't make sense at all to me from what I knew of the Bible and the hypocracy of it all was disgusting. In time, I started to do more thinking, asking more questions and started getting more visits from the elders telling me that I was walking on thin ice for having any doubts and pursuing worldly knowledge in my efforts to prove God existed.

    The first big bomb shell that fell on me was when I discovered the big coverup the of Society to hide the extent of the mental illness among JW's after the prophetic disconfirmation in 1975. I had photocopied several articles about the epidemic of JW's suffering from mental illness in the late 1970's (even some people in our own congregation went off the deep end and started showing up at the Kingdom Hall naked) and when I showed the elders this, not only did they tear up the copies into little pieces and return them, they went to the local college library and destroyed and defaced the books and journals I had photocopied them from (I know this was true because I went back to the college library to recopy them and found every reference I used before either torn out or the book was missing.) When I confronted the elders by this, they told me it was better to hang a millstone around your neck than to stumble your brother and it was necessary to do this to keep anyone in the congregation from finding out about this and being stumbled.

    All of this dissappointed me but I just wrote it off as "human imperfection" always assuming that things would get better in time (fat chance of that.) Things went downhill from that point in the congregation as I was removed from being a M.S. and pioneer for having a negative attitude (i.e. having doubts) and also because I made some negative comments during the Watchtower study about the statement back then that the human heart actually could "think" just like the brain (a former JW belief that was later changed by new light when it became apparent how absurd it was).

    I was disfellowshipped though without any commitee meeting for later writing to the Society and telling them that I had discovered that the JW membership growth matched the sunspot cycle. Letters were sent to various congregations that I had visited with before, warning them that I was a dangerous apostate and should not even be allowed in the Kingdom Hall. So, that brought an end to the JW days. However, I decided to go to college after this and was determined to find evidence to support God's existance and after three years of the sciences I began to realize that I couldn't find the slightest shread of evidence for God's existance and that causative events and natural laws explained things far more effectively than any intelligent creator meme.

    The only thing I could say though is that while I was mentally 100% sure (oh, well maybe more like 95% sure) I was right, I was deeply sad over the whole thing. My dreams of living in a paradise earth, were only that; I really got depressed about the idea of getting nuked in a much more real chance of a nuclear war; I lost my entire family, friends, way of life and realized I had been wasting years of my life in a stupid memetic nightmare.

    On the bright side, I learned that wordly people are not all evil, even some very religious ones are really cool; that there is truly a lot of wonderful things we can learn about the universe and ourselves (this is why I became a scientist later) and how great sex could be!

    So, it wasn't a case of sour grapes that led me to being an Athiest. I don't have a grudge to grind with anyone, nor do I have a need to prove this paradigm to anyone else. In fact, I'm still rather skeptical of my own beliefs and I think all of us should be. We humans get so full of it sometimes and we just need to do some mental house keeping to get rid of the useless and destructive stuff and concentrate on things that will not only enrich our lives but also help us help others to make a better world. Something you can believe in without any Watchtower showing you the way.

    Skipper

  • joelbear
    joelbear

    Vienna,

    I copied this over from the Homosexuality thread since it basically answers your question from my perspective.

    I understand the gamble. I understand what not being a Jehovah's Witness, if they are right, means. Friday is correct when he says I have made an informed decision.

    First I looked at teachings. I asked, were the things that Jehovah's Witnesses taught me true? The answer, yes, many were true, some were not. As I have already stated this was not enough to push me into gambling.

    Second, I looked at the effects these teachings had on believers. I asked, did believing in these things and believing that one was a part of God's only earthly organization have an effect on the way people behaved? The answer, sometimes it had a strong effect on their behavior in a positive manner, sometimes it had a marginal effect in that they basically behaved in a decent manner but still pursued life basically as they would had they been a non-witness, and sometimes it had either no effect or a negative effect on their behavior. When I broadened my circle to non-Jehovah's Witnesses I found that, in reality, this spectrum of behavior was true for any group of people, whether they were organized into some business, social or religious group or whether they were just picked off the street at random. This is proven by this message board. We are a group of people who have an interest in discussing the aspects of the Jehovah's Witness religion. Everyone here has that in common. Look at the amazing variety of styles and behavior that this sub sub sub culture has. However, this was also not enough to pushing me into the gamble.

    The third strike was my inability to settle the question of equinimity. I bring this up again because I think it is a vital point. Friday dismisses it, but doesn't address it. No religion, including Jehovah's Witnesses have created a logical scenario in which the original test on Adam, the question of universal sovereignty and the means by which all of humanity that has ever existed (which includes aborted embryos and fetuses by the Bible's definition of humanity)can be judged equally in terms of their answering the question asked of Adam, that is, does God have the right to rule me? I will admit gladly that Jehovah's Witnesses come closer to this than any other religion which I have studied, which made me waver for years after the above questions were pondered and still gives me pause to consider the gamble that I have taken.

    Without a viable answer to the logic of "the test", the way god set up "the test" (leaving the destiny and eventual testing of billions of humans up to 2 people in the entire universe) and the way god now continues "the test" and will eventually dispense justice based on how we do on "the test" I will not consider a religious way of thought to be valid enough to take my chips off the table.

    This is the fulcrum on which my decision to give in to my fleshly desires and practice homosexuality rested upon. This is the issue on which my faith was based and upon which it ceased to exist.

    That is the truth and Jehovah God, if he exists, knows that is the truth.

    may we all find peace

    Joel

  • Utopian Reformist
    Utopian Reformist

    I begin. I was born and baptized Roman Catholic. I attended Catholic Schools in Italy and the United States. I attended private college and graduate school.

    During my catholic years, I was not an active or regular parishioner. Despite catechisms and holidays, I did not develop or pursue any interests in catholicism.

    Religion and the Bible appeared mysterious and occult-like. During my teen years, I experimented with the occult. Seances were popular in my home village and with my mother's family. Certain older women were known as local witches, or "night ladies". During my entire life, I have never been approached or reprimanded by any clergy about my irregularity or occult experimentations.

    Then after military service and college, the Live Forver book appeared through an old friend. Even then, when I approached the local parish and tendered my resignation letter from the church, I was not chastised, nor discouraged. It was purley administrative. I was only questioned about my church budget.

    While a witness, I read "How to rescue a loved one from the Watchtower" and "I was a Watchtower Slave" and many other books, some critical, some neutral, some praiseworthy.

    All of this was done in total SECRECY! Because as an "approved associate", baptized brother, pioneer, only WTBS literature was truth from JAH through the slave. Everything else was apostate.

    This ends part one.

  • bboyneko
    bboyneko

    Comments on other's comments:

    and when I showed the elders this, not only did they tear up the copies into little pieces and return them, they went to the local college library and destroyed and defaced the books and journals I had photocopied them from

    I worked at a library, and many of our anti-Jw literature mysteriously 'vanished.' I had a hard time ordering crisi of conscience from Interstate library loan because it would always dissapear enroute..I was eventually forced to just buythe silly book.

    I made some negative comments during the Watchtower study about the statement back then that the human heart actually could "think" just like the brain (a former JW belief that was later changed by new light when it became apparent how absurd it was).

    This is actually an ancient jewish beleif, and is the reason the bible uses the phrase 'what is in the heart' and 'god sees the heart' and 'commits adultery in his heart.' And it's the reason we use similair phrases today. This is clearly disproven by the Dude who just got his heart 100% replaced by a mechanical heart and he didn't all of a sudden cease to think and speak and watch 'Friends.'

    I beleive the JW also used this to argue against organ transplants, saying that the organs would transfer over the previous owners thoughts and morals.

    anyway I am an athiest only in the judeo-christian sense..I do not beleive that the god of the old and new testament is the 'true' god. I dont know who is. Maybe my cat is. Can you disprove it? Even if you killed my cat I can say he is ruling in heaven over all of us. I can say although he never speaks to em I pray to him every day and that he 'answers' me because I have occasionaly good fortune and this is directly because of hin influence. When bad things happen, I can say it is not my cats fault but that it is the fault of an evil squirrel.

    THings such as this (which I posted in an earlier post about adam not being created to live forever) made me doubt the judeo-christian god YHWH.

    Deuteronomy 24
    16
    Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sin.
    2 Kings 14
    6
    Yet he did not put the sons of the assassins to death, in accordance with what is written in the Book of the Law of Moses where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."

    2 Chronicles 25
    4
    Yet he did not put their sons to death, but acted in accordance with what is written in the Law, in the Book of Moses, where the LORD commanded: "Fathers shall not be put to death for their children, nor children put to death for their fathers; each is to die for his own sins."

    yet god kills all those poor innocent kids during the flood, and then during the plauqes of egypt.

    Exodus 20
    5
    You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me
    Deuteronomy 5
    9
    You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me.

    Also this is a favirote:

    2
    This is what the LORD Almighty says: `I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
    3
    Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[1] everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'"

    Some translations translate the word 'infants' as 'sucklings' meaning these are kids so small they are still breast feeding. What could they possibly do to deserve death by a sword? It gets better:

    1 Samuel 15:
    But Saul and the army spared Agag and the best of the sheep and cattle, the fat calves[2] and lambs--everything that was good. These they were unwilling to destroy completely, but everything that was despised and weak they totally destroyed.

    They were unwilling to destroy sheep but they were fine killing suckling babies??????

    1 Samuel 15:
    10
    Then the word of the LORD came to Samuel:
    11
    "I am grieved that I have made Saul king, because he has turned away from me and has not carried out my instructions." Samuel was troubled, and he cried out to the LORD all that night.

    Now God himself is 'grieved' because they didnt fully destroy everything like he had said. Can you imagine a god pissed because sheep were spared? Small breast feeding babies were slauhgtered by them but all god cares about is the sheep spared.

    This is not a god I want to worship.

    -Dan

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