Religious-ethical hypothesis: Lets say...

by Hellrider 9 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Hellrider

  ...lets say God exists! (This is only a hypothesis, you don`t have to believe that he/she/it exists). Then comes judgement day. God and Jesus appears in the sky, Jesus on a white horse, followed by the other horsemen, and an army of angels. God speaks to mankind from the sky, with his mighty voice, and he says:

  - Hi there, humans. Well, I have some bad news for you. None of you had the correct interpretation of the Bible! Jehovahs Witnesses: I`m pretty damn sick of you calling me Jehovah, my name is YHWH, so shut your mouths! That blood-policy-crap you came up with, was completely unbiblical, and because of it, many have died, both children and adults, needlessly! GBs and selfproclaimed "annointed", I`m especially gonna have a talk with you later! You got maybe one or two things right in your interpretation of the Bible, the rest was crap! All you other christians: You made some errors too! Half of what you came up with, was pretty good, the rest was crap! And all you scientologists, mormons, adventists, evangelicals, you are all completely NUTS! Ay ay ay....what on earth am I going to do with you all....

  Ok, so what is he going to do? Sentence everyone to death, eternal damnation, non-existence, or (god forbid), eternal hellfire? What if there is no church that has the right/correct interpretation of the Bible? And: When you were a JW, especially if you were so for a long time; Looking back, I`m sure you remember some kids that were genuinely kind, sweet, kids that didn`t have a bad bone in their bodies. So, they grew up, and turned into the average arrogant, selfrighteous, judgemental JW. What`s God gonna do with those? People that were originally kind and sweet, but, because of their upbringing became huge a##holes? Were they supposed to have seen their own "development", and said, in an early stage "hey...I don`t think I wanna be a part of this anymore", or...? What`s gonna happen to all these people? And: Even if there IS one church that has the correct interpretation: Does that mean God will judge all the others, sentence them to die or be punished? How could a person even have the time, with his average lifespan, to go thru all these churches, to see which one is the "correct" one?

  (maybe these are just ramblings. But feel free to respond, lol )
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  Narkissos

  I would prefer the Johannine version:

  And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God."

  I just remembered that the NWT has also twisted this one quite a bit, unwarrantedly translating: " Now this is the basis for judgment..." Making room for a future judgment whereas the Johannine judgment, as salvation, is now.
• 

  poppers

  OK, let's say god does exist. But instead of some sort of personal god as is usually depicted, and who would act from this "personal" perspective, god is something beyond the personal image humans have created in their minds. In other words, if what is "god" is an impersonal "non-entity" - would there then be "anyone" to wreak "vengeance" upon humanity? Would there by "anyone" to "condemn" some while "saving" others? Why is there this persistence in clinging to ideas of a personal god, which would inherently contain limitation? Surely "god" would be beyond any and all limitation, would he not?

  All ideas of "god" are just that, ideas. If there is such a thing as "god", what that word points to would be beyond the mind and all of the fabrications that mind would create concerning the nature of "god". Such a god would be unlimited and unbound by time or space, and therefore, he would exist in everything, including every human. Being inside each manifestation of creation, he would be available here and now. All that would be "required" to realize "god" would be the cessation of conceptualizing about him and remain present with what is in the here and now. Then ideas of being saved or condemned become meaningless.
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  heathen

  I think the first thing a person should do is read the bible for themselves on their own without looking at any religions interpretations . From there you look at the basic beliefs of other religions via the web . It shouldn't take a liftime to do that . So the choice would be to join one that matches what you read in the bible or start your own . The western hemisphere is freedom of religion so I don't see why I couldn't start my own .
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  TopHat

  I feel this way and I expressed these thoughts to my JW friends a few months ago. As long as Satan is running amuck on the earth and allowed by God to tempt us all which he is very effective at doing. How can God sit in heaven and judge us by this short life we as humans have on earth. Because weak humans do NOT have a chance against a strong and invisible force such as Satan. Even the scripture is confusing and there are to many interpretations. My friends really did not have an answer for me as there was nothing they could say that I hadn't heard before.

  I keep wondering why didn't God our Father look out for our interest in the first place. So Eve and Adam sinned and lost everlasting life....Just why in the hell didn't God kill Satan. Christ could have redeemed our inherited sin without Satan roaming the earth and we might be better people for it.

  I don't have an answer...just questions
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  Hellrider

  I keep wondering why didn't God our Father look out for our interest in the first place.

  Got me thinking...what about people who are just...inheritly stupid! I mean, downright dumb! Low intelligence! There are such people, you know! How about these folks? People that are easy prey for all sorts of cults, just because they are stupid. How could people like this analyse scripture, the doctrines of different christian orientations, etc, when normal people even have a hard time doing so. Why didn`t God make sure that all people at least had sufficient intelligence to sort thru these things, to at least have the mental ability to have a basic understanding of the scriptures? What about retards? Semi-retards? (oh, I mean "mentally challenged"...) It`s a bit unfair, isn`t it? Just because of this one example, I`m leaning towards believing that salvation can`t depend on having the "correct interpretation". What`s God gonna do with these folks? "Hey you, yeah you in the back there with drewl coming out from your mouth, I`ve made an exception for you, you poor dummy, come on in...but as for the rest of you...you`re really gonna get it now!!"
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  Hellrider

  Narkissos wrote:

  I would prefer the Johannine version:

  And this is the judgment, that the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For all who do evil hate the light and do not come to the light, so that their deeds may not be exposed. But those who do what is true come to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that their deeds have been done in God."

  I agree, but this view isn`t without problems either. All thru the NT there is the view that the only way to salvation lies in belief in Christ, and this belief is crucial to avoid "damnation", whatever that is, also in John:

  John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life. The one who rejects the Son will not see life, but God’s wrath remains on him.

  If I could, of course I would base my entire belief and life on 1.Corinthians 13. But the Bible is more than that. In light of John 3,36: If I get so confused and frustrated about the Bible, all its possible interpretations, all the different churches, views, approaches, etc etc, and reject christianity, but still lead a moral life, will I still be judged? Well, I don`t "reject" Christ, but live in a sort of "state of flux", and do not make up a final decision whether to believe or not. I know to much to choose one direction over another (and I don`t even know anything, compared to many on this forum). You could say, that in a Spinozian way, knowledge can become a curse. Most these different views on the Bible, all the different interpretations have at least "something" in which they are correct. But they also have a lot that is wrong. So: What about people that are in doubt? - but still lead moral life, and essentially live more christian-like than most christians: Do they have any hope of salvation? What do you people think?
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  heathen

  jesus did say you could identify his people because they would have love among themselves . The apostle Paul did say that without love he would have nothing at all . The way I read revelation is that only the ones that do not have the mark of the beast or worship it's image will survive the final battle .To me it is clear that any political involvement is out . The whore of babylon had intercourse with the kings of the earth and is destroyed when God puts it into the mind of the scarlet beast to do so .
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  Narkissos

  Hellrider,

  If I could, of course I would base my entire belief and life on 1.Corinthians 13.

  Just a suggestion: perhaps you are asking too much from "the Bible" and from yourself.

  Perhaps "sacred words," wherever they come from, are not meant to be constructed into a consistent doctrine with an answer to every question, for us to base our "entire beliefs and lives" on, but just an indication to be heard and believed now; helping us to make our next step in life. More than that is actually less.

  live in a sort of "state of flux", and do not make up a final decision whether to believe or not. I know to much to choose one direction over another

  Paradoxically I think that it is exactly what "faith" is about. If you did make up a final decision to believe this or that then you would not be living by faith anymore. A lot of things are really undecidable, not only because of their objectively dubious nature but also for the lack of a subjective instance within ourselves who could really decide once and for all. When we pretend to decide we just fool ourselves. We happen to respond diversely to the diversity of scripture according to where we stand at a particular time and in a particular situation. We cannot simplify ourselves to a consistent position and get rid of the rest of what we also are. This is what I desperately tried to do as a JW teenager, and which only led me to hypocrisy.

  Another absolute statement in Scripture, besides "God is Love," is "Don't judge and you won't be judged." If you listen to it absolutely, it too makes everything else unnecessary.
• 

  Hellrider

  Narkissos: Those are words of wisdom. I have thought in this way too, but then there`s always the passages like "noone enters the Kingdom except thru me", etc etc, but I`ll just have to live with those passages, I guess. Either way, I think God would look more kindly on a "state-of-flux"-person that lives morally, than a fundamentalist christian (whichever group) who hurts a lot of people in his/her selfrigtheous quest for godliness. Whenever I hear devout christians talk about their religion, it`s always "we, us, me, are supposed to live a certain way for the sake of our, mine, salvation". Basically, although "Living like a christian" means living in a way that is beneficial to others, and at least not harmful to others, most christians live this way for their own sake, for their own salvations sake. So there is always something egoistical present, in even the kindest deed. I could never be one of those. If I live morally and don`t hurt others, and help out when I can, but still can`t make up my mind about the Bible, if this means I am facing eternal damnation: So be it. It`s a matter of integrity.

  Another absolute statement in Scripture, besides "God is Love," is "Don't judge and you won't be judged." If you listen to it absolutely, it too makes everything else unnecessary

  My exact thoughts too, on the NT. The basic two absolutely fundamental principles: Love, and Judgement belongs to God. Most christian groups, especially the JWs, are breaking both these two fundamental principles.