Why did Jesus not mention the 144,000?

truthseeker

If anyone can answer this I would be grateful.

Jesus' Kindom message was, "Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." I presume that at this time, everyone who became a disciple of Christ had the hope of going to heaven.

More than likely, there would have been more than 144,000 disciples by the time Revelation was written.

My question is, what is the status and destination for any disciple who's student ID is over 144,000? Are they part of the heavenly group mentioned below in Rev 7:9?

Rev 7:9 "After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes, peoples, and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands."

Also, if the group above is in heaven, why the use of physical objects in a place where flesh and blood cannot enter? Palm branches, white robes etc.

greendawn

"Also, if the group above is in heaven, why the use of physical objects in a place where flesh and blood cannot enter? Palm branches, white robes etc."

Very often the Bible uses earthly images in a heavenly context to help us better understand the message being given eg white robes are a symbol of purity, a royal sceptre is a symbol of authority. The Great Crowd could be in heaven even if described in earthly terms as after all New Jerusalem is in heavens though made of "gold" and "diamonds".

As for the 144 000 they are likely to be a symbolic number as the fact that they are male, virginal, jews is also symbolic.

Leolaia

See: http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/96705/1.ashx

truthseeker

Thanks Greendawn for clarification and Leo for the link - very interesting.

Dan

Now What?

Liturgy. These are symbolic passages to indicate that the liturgy is greater than just here on earth, but encompasses all living things in adoration to God. Material things are often used symbolically to get a spiritual idea across, similar to how art is used to convey a thought or feeling.

We have the:

angels... heavenly powers

the four living creatures... all of creation in adoration to God

the 24 elders... represents the Old and New Covenants (the 12 tribes of the old + the 12 Apostles of the new)

144, 000... the People of God (the number signifies completeness: 12 is completeness. 12x12 shows dimension, covering a complete area.{Is 6:2-3} 1000 symbolises totality. 12x12x1000 is symbolic for totality of God's People. It could actually be 4 billion or only 4000 for all we know. The point is that is it not a literal number)

AK - Jeff

Why did Jesus not mention the 144,000?

Cause he never heard of them. Certainly not the conceptual misunderstanding the witnesses believe.
Jeff

JosephMalik

Jesus' Kindom message was, "Repent, for the Kingdom of the heavens has drawn near." I presume that at this time, everyone who became a disciple of Christ had the hope of going to heaven. Truthseeker, The hope was not going to heaven. The hope was being part of this kingdom of heaven or Kingdom of God. Mr 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel. You will find Kingdom or Heaven and God used interchangeably since this phrase was never intended to mean a location other than earth. And the disciples themselves always believed this location to be here on earth. Truthseeker: More than likely, there would have been more than 144,000 disciples by the time Revelation was written. My question is, what is the status and destination for any disciple who's student ID is over 144,000? Are they part of the heavenly group mentioned below in Rev 7:9? The number is symbolic of the Church, at least that part of this Church that would not be expelled for being evil slaves at that time. The destination for any such disciple is here on earth through resurrection or being changed. What you see in the Revelation is a vision, a pictorial representation of this kingdom as in a drama or dream. Yes we see robes, palm branches and select humans in this vision because it deals with mankind (not spirit kind) in a future human and earthly Kingdom. What is being illustrated in this vision is the Church (the 144000 with its Jewish origins consisting also of Gentiles spliced in) and a great multitude existing together in the same place and at the same time. Thus salvation with assistance such Church will provide is offered to all mankind that for one reason or another is found worthy of entry into this Kingdom promised in scripture.
Joseph

truthseeker

JosephMalik, you raise interesting points, but I ask, "What is the Kingdom of God"?

What would the average disciple have understood about this Kingdom? What did he think it meant?

What do you think it means for us today?

Is it something in the heart?

I am sick and tired of praying for the Kingdom - I mean, how many billions of prayers are needed? Really, all things should have happened on earth within a few decades of Christ's death?

How can it be said that Jesus commented, "I am coming quickly" when we're still waiting for the Kingdom?

JosephMalik

you raise interesting points, but I ask, "What is the Kingdom of God"? What would the average disciple have understood about this Kingdom? What did he think it meant? Truthseeker, The Kingdom of God is just what it says. A Kingdom, which is a government or heavens as such governments are often called in scripture. This is a government God authorizes and supports. It is likened to the continuation of the throne of David and the disciples understood it would be established here on earth. Acts 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: After all the training our Lord gave his disciples and after forty more days of such training concerning this Kingdom of God what did they understand about it? Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? Yes, the Kingdom to Israel. A earthly human kingdom ruled by men and in this case with Christ himself as King. They had the kingdom pegged right but the time of its restoration wrong, that’s all. Truthseeker: I am sick and tired of praying for the Kingdom - I mean, how many billions of prayers are needed? Really, all things should have happened on earth within a few decades of Christ's death? How can it be said that Jesus commented, "I am coming quickly" when we're still waiting for the Kingdom? This kingdom is never farther away from anyone than Death itself. But I understand how you feel. The time that has passed is really not a long time in comparison to earth’s human history. And this time has not come because not all the Church (the saints) are sealed yet. It can use more truthseekers. Joseph

Darth Yhwh

Because he didn't have enough digits to count that high?

Why did Jesus not mention the 144,000?

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