A great crowd.. heaven or earth.

by IP_SEC 8 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC


    The Great Crowd… ahh yes The Great Crowd. Actually I’m not sure where the witnesses get the term The Great Crowd. The bible simply calls it a great crowd. How did we go from a simple description to a proper name? But I digress.

    Where does this great crowd live according to the bible? Witnesses say on earth, but their reasons are speculation at best and lies at worst. This is really one of the first doctrinal things I began to disagree with them on.

    1. Rev 7:9- They are described as standing before the throne and in the presence of the son of man. Sounds like heaven to me. Now the witnesses say the Greek word enopion does not necessarily put them in heaven but merely in sight of the throne. Earth is in sight of the throne so there you have it. If you are a witness my question to you is this: Are the four living creatures on earth or in heaven? How about the angels? Read Rev 7:11. The angel and the living creatures fall down and worship where? Enopion (before) the throne. Sooo isnt it a little dishonest to use the that argument about enopion, and not tell us that in the same passage and context the angels and 4 living creatures worship before (enopion) the throne?

    2. Rev 19:1, 2- Speaks of a great crowd on Earth, oops I mean in HEAVEN. Now the dubs never comment on this one. If you look in the RiGCaH book you will find a whole lot of info on the crowd mentioned in Rev 7, but nary a mention of the ones in 19. I brought this up to one witness once and he said, “well that must be the angels… there are a lot of angels in heaven you know” But if you read the two passages side by side it is not hard to conclude that both great crowds are the same groups. The both praise god and Jesus, and right after their words of praise guess who show up again? Yep the 24 elders and the four living creatures.

    Things that make you go “HMMM”

    Next, the divine habitation and the location of a great crowd.

    Peace!

    Matt

  • JosephMalik
    JosephMalik

    This is really one of the first doctrinal things I began to disagree with them on. IP_Sec, Well maybe they just got lucky, but earth is correct. Who this great crowd is or how were they derived is false. They are a great crowd of sheep derived from the separating of Nations that existed throughout history as described in Matt. 25:31. Pretty much like the wheat and tares are separated. Or the seed of the woman identified and separated from the seed of the serpent. That is the idea. 1. Rev 7:9- They are described as standing before the throne and in the presence of the son of man. Sounds like heaven to me. The problem with such thinking is that this son will be here at THAT time. Everyone will be here, this great crowd of sheep, the Church (144,000), our Lord in the flesh, everyone that is resurrected to immortal human life for whatever reason. This assembly is approved by God and pictured as being before the throne symbolically. Joseph

  • PopeOfEruke
    PopeOfEruke

    And if you look up "Great Crowd" in the Index at the back of the New World Translation, it conveniently forgets to mention the reference at Rev. 19:1. !! There are only 4 mentions of a great crowd and the one that doesn't match the KW's view, they decide not to cross-reference.

    Seriously, for the avergae J-Dub to be so blind and stupid and let themselves be led by such devious people, is beyond words.....

    Pope

  • colorado5591
    colorado5591

    This week on Coffee Talk with Linda Richman....

    "I'm a little verklempt. "Talk amongst yourselves. I'll give you a topic." The Great Crowd is neither great nor crowded. Discuss.

    Sorry Ipsec, this topic needed some comedic relief, it just popped into my head!

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC
    comedic relief,

    Are you threatening me?

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC
    They are a great crowd of sheep derived from the separating of Nations

    Sorry, I didnt see where the passage said this.

    Everyone will be here, this great crowd of sheep, the Church (144,000)

    In your interpretation are the 4 living creatures going to be here in the flesh too?

  • colorado5591
    colorado5591

    Oh how I needed that laugh! Ilove you to pieces!

  • Narkissos
    Narkissos

    See http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/101188/1.ashx (in spite of the title: the 144,000 led to some interesting discussion of the "great crowd").

  • Cygnus
    Cygnus

    Well, the Apocalypse says itself it is presented in signs. Sorta how Jesus admitted he was speaking to the disciples in figures of speech (Jn 16:25) and thus using John 14:1-3 and saying it means believers go to heaven when they die (even though the word heaven is not there) is kinda jumping to conclusions. I think it's a bad idea to derive doctrine from Revelation, other than the very clearly stated ideas, like the ones given to the 7 churches.

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