Anybody else had visions?

by philo 81 Replies latest jw friends

  • ChuckD
    ChuckD

    By all means, I think people should read all of the letters which came in reply to that study. One issue that seems common to them is a tendency to discount the study since it was conducted by a nine-year-old. Remember that the participants in this study all agreed that that test conditions were fair in advance, and found fault only after the study showed results that were disfavorable.

    I don't for a moment beleive that these practitioners are insincere. I am sure that they are truly committed to helping people, are really really believe that what they do works. As one letter on the site you cited says;

    "The experiment by Ms Rosa and colleagues does more than demonstrate that the practitioners of TT are unable to sense the HEF. It also shows that they genuinely believe they can. The practitioners would not have allowed themselves to be tested otherwise. Their public responses to the article indicate that they will continue to believe they can and will be wary of future critical investigators of any age."

    By all means, if anyone can cite some evidence that shows that it DOES work, please do so.

  • lisaBObeesa
    lisaBObeesa

    Shane,

    What an amazing story!

    How are you doing now? My husband also has a TBI. He fell from a waterfall/cliff while hiking. It took the rescue people hours to get him out of the ravine he had fallen into. That was in '86. Today, he is on SSI and considering returning to work.

    -LisaBobeesa

  • rem
    rem

    Intro,

    I suggest you read all of the letters. It is clear that many missed the point of the study and others are defending the effectiveness of the placebo effect. The statistical criticisms are dealt with in the last letter. Note that the study was peer reviewed before JAMA published it. Peer review also takes into account statistical analysis and experiment controls.

    The fact is that there has not been one study that has provided any hope for TT therapy. Time and time again the results are negative or the study is higly flawed. I would expect to see many angry letters from people when their mode of therapy is criticized and yet they have no positive evidence to put forward.

    Remember - TT therapy proponents claim that the practicioners can feel the energy field of the patient. The practitioners that agreed to be involved in the test had the utmost confidence that they could feel the presence of the child's hands with knowledge of the protocol of the experiment. They were suprised that they had done so badly - they didn't see any reason why their powers would not work. Then after the results were announced, others complained on their behalf.

    I'm convinced that any improvement on the patient's part can be attributed to the placebo effect. Modern healing institutions such as hospitals should not rely on treatments that have no measurable effect other than the placebo effect. Nurses don't provide sugar pills instead of Tylenol when a patient is suffering from pain, do they?

    rem

    "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
    ..........Bertrand Russell

  • rem
    rem

    I also wanted to add that the one doctors response about germ theory being disputed and without any scientific support at the time hand washing was suggested.

    This reasoning is flawed because even if the theory of microorganisms was not known back then, hand washing had clear, indisputable positive effects that could be seen in controlled experiments. An experiment could have been set up to see how many patients actually faired better with hand washing than without. If the positive effect was much greater than chance or placebo (some doctors could have said they washed their hands, but didn't and vica versa), then a real phenomenon could be determined. It would not matter whether TV cameras were watching the doctors or not through the experiment or how old the patient was.

    So far there has been no study of TT or any other psi claims that have been able to do better than chance or placebo.

    rem

    "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
    ..........Bertrand Russell

  • philo
    philo

    Susanhere,
    Just saying I have been really enjoying all your posts lately; "voice of sanity". (Btw, you don't wear tight leather gear like Prisca, do you? )

    philo

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    Rem, I was fully aware that the letters addresses both sides of the issue when I posted the link, that is why I posted it, for those who are interested to see for themselves. This may be hard for you to believe, but I was not interested in supporting one side of the issue. However, I am familiar with Quackwatch and Stephen Barrett, and my concern stemmed from Chuck's citing of his work alone.

    I'm not that familiar with TT myself and actually don't think that such healing modalities are practical considerations, given the fact that there is a lot an individual can do in terms of lifestyle adjustments. In fact this is more important, even someone I know who is reputed to have what you might categorize as psi ability (he doesn't) has said so. The simple fact of the matter is a lot of chronic problems are brought about by these lifestyle factors, and regardless of the treatment modality one session isn't going to correct that for you.

    The relevancy of my own interests lies in my practice of tai chi and qi gong. For those who do not know the position tai chi holds in the martial arts it is no doubt just a nice vascular exercise for old folks in the park, but for people who have mastered the precision of the forms practicing it full speed can even be cardiovascular, but the value of it, to any knowledgeable practioner lies in the 'internal' aspects. In terms of what you call psi claims, however, I'm sure a good deal of the 1200+ studies/abstracts that has thus far been translated into English found in the Qigong Database would address this. Unfortunately, I don't know where one might access this database, but I suspect I can find a local site or if nothing else spare the money and get it from Berkeley if I really wanted to. But frankly, this is not something I am consumed with either so it's not something I put a lot of effort into.

    And .. the truth is not everyone is interested in proving something to you even if they know what they're talking about. Some people are more interested in proving it to themselves, or having done that they're more interested in actually practicing or teaching it. I understand the more scientifically minded of us sees statistical evidence as the gold standard, and I understand the reasons behind it, having been educated to that effect. But in case you didn't make the connection, one significance of the martial arts aspect is that direct, physical results are involved. When the results come from a scrawny little guy you're forced to ponder how it works. We say lets see the evidence, some people will think why should I bother getting into this. Actually, the issue is likely to never come up. The bottom line is you only try to prove something if you feel a need to, and I might add if you are personally identified with it. Even if someone is very skilled in a certain ability, it may be that they don't see it as "theirs."

  • rem
    rem

    Intro,

    Thanks for clearing that up. I appreciate your views. I do believe, though that people are trying to proove psi - there are numerous studies and reports that attest to that, along with misleading pseudoscience TV programs.

    I think my main concern is for people who waste their money on innefective treatment when they are not presented with the facts (statistical) but only convincing anecdotes. If they still want the treatment, then that is fine, but they should have the facts before a decision is made for them. I think leaving such therapy practices in the hands of religious figures is a fine solution.

    As far as Tai Chi and Qi Gong - I've not looked into that. I don't see any problem with internal aspects of such practices. What I'm more concerned with is external effects that are claimed with other practices - such as with TT therapy. If a practice gives someone peace or makes them feel well, then they should continue that practice, but Hospitals should not be endorsing or funding practices that have been shown to have little to no value, statisticaly speaking.

    rem

    (I hope to meet you at the picnic in Golden Gate Park!) :)

    "Most people would rather die than think; in fact, they do so."
    ..........Bertrand Russell

  • Introspection
    Introspection

    Rem,

    The literal translation of the words qi gong is (breath)energy work. There are a lot of different types, the most common and more basic is the internal where one practices for their own health. Other more esoteric forms which relates to psi involves affecting people at a distance (aka empty force or kong jing) which can be used for healing, or hard qi gong for martial arts applications, where people have concrete slabs broken over their bodies and spears jammed into their throats. (saw this type live by the Shaolin monks once) I found the remark of one tai chi grandmaster (the earlier reference) regarding the healing application interesting because here is a guy that obviously believes in the stuff, but he is making the point that you should practice yourself, which doesn't cost anything. (he is an Oriental Medical Doctor and has an acupuncture practice, though he only treats his students when they get injured and doesn't sell it) After all, even if it is energetic it would kind of be invasive in nature if someone else was to affect you. Incidentally, he also says that feeling sensations are a side effect. In any case, taking good care of yourself (by your own efforts) is a good general rule of thumb that no doubt everyone can appreciate, regardless of how one goes about achieving that.

  • Shane
    Shane

    Shane,
    What an amazing story!

    How are you doing now? My husband also has a TBI. He fell from a waterfall/cliff while hiking. It took the rescue people hours to get him out of the ravine he had fallen into. That was in '86. Today, he is on SSI and considering returning to work.

    -LisaBobeesa
    My e-mail address is [email protected] I would love to share my history with you. ~ Shane

  • Shane
    Shane

    After my head injury my wife of 22 years decided that I was too much to handle so she married a know child abuser fresh out of prison, he tried it again so put him back in, got tattoos and a Harley Davidson.
    Most of my frontal lobe was ruined so I have seizures and narocolepsy as well as my brain injury problems. The Elders at the time did not take that into concideratiuon when they disfellowshiped me, God will punish them for that I am sure, if not, then I dont need him anyway I will just wait out my turn to die inn this sick world.
    ~ Shane

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