My email with a whacked out dub!

by FreeWilly 12 Replies latest jw experiences

  • FreeWilly
    FreeWilly

    I received a few emails from JW's angry at the feedback that I left regarding the MSN news story about JW's repairing roofs for fellow JW's. These are some snippits from my coorespondance with one of them. This guy's precious! It sounds like he has been here on this board. He calls everyone here "evil and mean".

    I suggest one of you formulate a reply. Whoever has the best reply, I'll forward and see what kind of response it gets. This should be fun!


    Freewilly:

    I understand that ones religion can be a very personal attachment, but I think you might be better served if you are able to view it objectively and critically. "Critical thinking" is often confused with negative "criticism". Rather Critical thinking is the ability to remove yourself from your own bias, tendencies and preconceived notions.

    You (Steve) said "What is wrong with God destroying bad people?"

    This is an interesting point. If you look back in history, some of the most notorious crimes against humanity we able to happen because a leader or group was able to convince others that their victims were wicked, stupid or otherwise inferior. I think you might just ask yourself if it's reasonable to conclude the 99.9% of people on Earth are "Bad".

    * How many hundreds of millions of these people are children?

    * Exactly what is it that makes these people beyond help, and needing to be killed?

    * Surely you realize that this would be the worst genocide ever conceived -- right?

    I don't want to argue about it. Maybe you could just ask yourself "Why"? When that village in China is confronted by an angry Angel, what will the reason the Angel gives them for the death sentence? Could you kill almost all of you children and still consider yourself a "Dad of Love" ?

    Steve:

    However it is not us that is doing the deciding or the killing. We are only giving warnings that we saw in the Bible. Disagreeing with these will not stop what God has planned.

    Freewilly:

    You (Steve) said: "After all he did that at the flood."

    That is what the story says. If a person sank a cruise liner because he didn't like the people on it would he be a hero or a criminal? Do realize that Archaeologists have found tablets from the Sumerian civilization that came before the Bible says the flood even took place? In some places the Jewish Bible writer borrows from it almost word for word! Just something to think about. I know it's easy to dismiss this type of evidence because it threatens everything you've come to know.

    Steve:

    The casting of doubt is the lack of faith. These many cultures have flood stories, but they say that people lived and people died.

    Freewilly:

    Steve said "He did that when the Israelites entered Canaan." (i.e killed them all)

    Yes, the Bible says that the Israelite armies were told to kill all the inhabitants. Why? Because God promised Abraham his descendants would inherit some prime real estate?? After all, Jehovah made no attempts at making a covenant with the Canaanites. Nor was the Mosaic law written for other nations. The Canaanites like many other peoples developed their own beliefs. Why wasn't there at least an effort to help them change there ways? Sad, if true.

    You also said: "He had the bad people destroyed." "He destroyed those who were not Jehovah's Witnesses." (as in the flood) He must be a very angry guy.

    Steve:

    And we should learn from that and change so that we are on God's side.

    Freewilly:

    Every Christian Religion believes they are the group before God in that Revelation Ch 7. You, like all of them, believe that you unique beliefs are what put you there.

    I like the way you say "That is just what the Bible teaches.". Actually the Bible calls these people "Jews" not "Jehovah's

    Witnesses". JW's, like all other religions, use their own brand of 'logic' to make those words apply to them.

    Steve:

    No, not every Christian Religion or they would be helping others. Yes our unique beliefs and practices set us apart and on God's side. So that should indicate to you that is the side to be on.

    No, the Bible does not call those people in Rev 7 Jews. It calls them "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,"They are from all nations" just like Jehovah's Witnesses are.

    Freewilly:

    And remember too Steve, that your religion used to teach that these things too were "Bible Teachings":

    God resides on the star Alcyone in the Pleiades constellation and that from this star he governed the universe! - Reconciliation 1928 p.14

    Steve:

    No, my religion did not teach that. Judge Rutherford did and he is not my religion. And this is not from Jehovah's Witnesses is it?

    Freewilly:

    Two complexes (Beth-Sarim & Beth Shan) were constructed to house the resurrected heros of the Bible. - Consolation, 1942 May 27 p.9.

    Steve:

    No, my religion did not teach that. Judge Rutherford did and he is not

    my religion. And this is not from Jehovah's Witnesses is it?

    Freewilly:

    The "Electronic Radio Biola" was a device purported by the Watchtower Society to diagnose and treat diseases. - The Golden Age, Apr. 22, 1925, pp. 453.

    Steve:

    The Golden Age was Clayton Woodworth, not my religion. And this is not from Jehovah's Witnesses is it?

    Freewilly:

    "Drugs, serums, vaccines, and surgical operations, of the medical profession are useless" and a form or "Egyptian black magic" - The Golden Age, Aug. 5, 1931, p. 727.

    Steve:

    Ditto. And this is not from Jehovah's Witnesses is it?

    Freewilly:

    Smallpox Vaccinations "sows the seed of syphilis, cancers, escema, erysipelas, scrofula, consumption, even leprosy and many other loathsome affections" and is of no benefit. - The Golden Age, May 1, 1929, p. 502.

    Steve:

    Ditto And this is not from Jehovah's Witnesses is it?

    Freewilly:

    If a women does not scream *while she is being raped,* she is guilty of fornication!! Watchtower 1964 January 15 pp.63-4

    Steve:

    That is true and I agree. She should do what she can to oppose the attacker.

    Freewilly:

    People have *died* resisting even /alternative/ military service only to have that rule reversed years later.

    Steve:

    That is good as that shows faith and obedience to God. But it was not changed. It said that they could serve their term in the compulsory service in a non-military manner that does not violate neutrality. That did not change.

    Freewilly

    People have *died* forgoing organ transplants only to have that rule reversed years later.

    Steve:

    That was not changed. People died getting organ transplants until 1983 when the drug was made to protect the body from fighting the new organs. So it was not safe prior to then as the Watchtower told of it not being safe. They used Biblical reasoning and not medical reasoning, but the result was the same that people were saved.

    Freewilly:

    The measurements of the Pyramids of Egypt confirm 1874 as the date beginning of the last days! - Thy Kingdom Come (© 1891) (1904 edition — Millennial Dawn, vol 3) p.342

    Steve:

    And this is not from Jehovah's Witnesses is it?



    Freewilly:

    Think about it Steve.

    Steve:

    I did. That is why I believe as I do. I do not let the writings of man stumble me.

    Freewilly:

    I'd like to recommend a website that has an interesting collection of ---> Watchtower quotes. <
    http://quotes.watchtower.ca/ Ask yourself if this spiritual food was "directed by God" or came from the minds of men.(Psalm 146:3)

    Steve:

    I know that many things were from the minds of men. But Jehovah's Witnesses follow what is in the Bible.

    Freewilly:

    I just wanted to leave you with some encouragement. If you feel the need to discuss some of the aspects of your religion, or just have a few questions, I recommend the website
    www.jehovah-witness.com

    Steve:

    Why would I do that? Those people are not Jehovah's witnesses but yet they misappropriate that url of that name. Thus they are liars and I have presented that question to them. They are mean and evil people as anyone who says anything good about JWs or the Watchtower, they cuss and swear at them.

    Freewilly:

    As time marches on, the idea that we are in the "short period of

    time" since 1914 becomes more and more unbeleivable. Furthermore, the annointed remnant that have been "sealed" since 1935 are dwindling even faster. And of course the "generation" since 1914 has passed away. As time erodes the Society's teachings many JW's develop valid questions.

    Steve:

    And so what of it? In 100 years everyone living will be dead. So what is your point? Mine is that I don't like the fact that 100 years everyone living now will be dead. So I choose the bible's hope and the bible indicates that we are in the time of the end. So I don't worry or concern myself with the details that the Watchtower has published as I continue on with the hope of the Bible.

    Freewilly:

    I recommend you investigate those inconsistancies.

    Steve:

    And then do what? Correct them?

    Latar.....

    Freewilly:

    I so very impressed with you blind devotion and wanton abandon of logic and reason Steve.

    Steve:

    Devotion to what? to whom? On the contrary, I am using the utmost logic and reason.

    Freewilly:

    I especially like the way you cast off those things published by the "faithful and discrete slave".

    Steve:

    Cast them off? No, more like apply them as they were meant to be.

    Freewilly:

    At first read one might guess that you are just uninformed. I suspect however, that you are simply saying whatever is required for you to save face.

    Steve:

    Required by whom?

    Freewilly:

    I'm quite confident that you do not represent the Society's publications as "not Jehovah's witnesses" when you parrot your answers in the Watchtower Study.

    Steve:

    I never parrot the Watchtower in the studies. I always answer in my words.

    Freewilly:

    So let me get this straight, the Watchtower Society publications ARE NOT the spiritual food provided by Jehovah? - interesting, if not deceptive.

    Steve:

    They are spiritual food at the proper time. Something given in 1920 is not the proper time today.

    Freewilly:

    It seems you have either "run ahead" of the organization or perhaps apostatized, teaching your own brand of crack-pot theology. More likely you are making it up as you go.

    Steve:

    I am using logic and reason rather than your generalizations. Why don't you just say what you mean.

    Freewilly:

    I fear you are doomed to live the rest of your life in anticipation of the wholesale slaughter of humankind by the meglo-maniac of a God your cult has created. Thank goodness this is an unfounded myth for what kind of person would embrace this demonic belief? My only comfort is that your numbers are stagnating and dwindling in those lands with access to information about the cult.

    Steve:

    Our group has not created that teaching, we are only preaching it.

    Freewilly:

    Your comments imply we should serve him to avoid being a part of his slaughter. Many of the reluctant Nazi's went along with Hitler for similar reasons.

    Steve:

    As I said, in 100 years everyone living today will be dead so is that any better? Or do you not think that far ahead?

    Freewilly:

    I leave you to the disappointment and warped reasoning bred by your freakish, inhumane religion. It appears you relish it anyway, so it's hard to feel sorry for your plight. Not much different a belief than many of the terrorists we see so frequently on the news. Cut from the same cloth?

    Steve:

    As long as it is not the same as yours. You wicked and foolish imbecile. How dare you address me with such disrespect!

  • carla
    carla

    and I live with one that sounds so similar to this nutcase. I can never keep up with the rape issue, are they presently teaching -no scream and it's fornication? Husband says he thinks that is wrong, yet, will go on to rationalize how some women put themselves in a bad situation, blah, blah. I asked him once if a prostitute could be raped? That circle just got so large and full of if's and but's I never found if they could or not! (in his opinion)

    How does he seperate Rutherford's teachings with that of the wt of today? I don't get it. True many changes have been made but like the jw's of today they were required to believe everything that was said then. oh hell, I give up.....

  • luna2
    luna2

    I don't know how you kept trying with that guy, Freewilly! I got a headache just reading it.

    I might have sounded something like that at one time too...I hope, though, that I would have at least gotten curious and tried to look up some of the things you mentioned.

    I think that a person's mind has to have already started disconnecting from the borg to be able to accept the real truth. If you are still clinging to the idea that by being in the Jehovah Club you are an extra special human being and will soon receive the BIG REWARD, I think its almost impossible to look critically at it.

  • IP_SEC
    IP_SEC
    And this is not from Jehovah's Witnesses is it?

    Do most dubs really not even know their wts sanctioned history? Jezus tapdancing christ.

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    Yep...definitely an "elder"...

    You wicked and foolish imbecile. How dare you address me with such disrespect!

    I'd recognize that rhetoric ANYWHERE!!!

    u/d

  • TopHat
    TopHat

    They make excusess because they want to believe all the hog-wash the WTS feeds them.

  • Frogleg
    Frogleg

    FreeWilly,

    Thank you for posting that. I'm not sure why, but it was somewhat cathartic for me. The questions that you asked were legitimate, and it seemed that Steve's most common response was outright denial. It kind of reminded me of a past president, "...I never had sexual relations with that woman!" "It depends on what the definition of 'is' is." And so on. Rutherford was never part of the Borg, eh? Funny, I sort of remember him having a somewhat prominent place in that green book that, supposedly, was the history of the JWs. But let me get this straight, because Russell, Rutherford, Franz, whoever, was giving the "proper food" for that time; but, today what they taught is no longer "proper food", it can therefore be ignored? Gosh, that's rather convenient, and useful. But, thinking about it:

    Russel, Rutherford, Franz, et al, claim that Jehovah is The Rock! That He never changes, is always the same. That Jehovah is the same today as he was for Moses. Further, the JWs claim that they are being led by Big J's spirit (in fact, they claim that are the ONLY ones being led so) which brings up the obvious questions 1) If Jehovah's spirit dispenses the proper food only for the moment, at what moment is the Bible proper food? 2) if what is being said, directed, emoted, blathered by the WT and/or Awake is only good for the moment, how long is that moment? Is it good for a day, a week, a month...? Does it come with one of those little milk carton stamps, "Best when consumed by..."? 3) If what Russell said is trumped by Rutherford which is trumped by Franz which is trumped by current events and so on, how is it possible to have any sense of an organization? 4) Rutherford was the dipshyt that came up with "Advertise, advertise, advertise...", is that now considered improper food? On what possible basis can any sort of reasonable credibility be given to what is being said in the WT pubs at this moment?

    But this is all doctrinal crapola. Word games, and symantical trickery, showy legerdermane for the easily impressed, snares for those loaded down with sins. My primary argument is not what the Borg says, but what it does. I suffered with all of the inconsistencies, the unanswerable questions, and waited on God to fix everything for 25 years. For most of my adult life I denied myself and my family because, to quote Terry,

    "Jehovah's Witnesses are required to live an empty life. It is demanded of them." and that is what I did. During that time I watched those evil, wicked, nasty, horrible "worldly people" do absolutely nothing to me or my family. Instead, I swallowed my bile, while over and over, for the most insignificant of reason the petty and abribtrariness of the Borg would hurt me or mine. FreeWilly, please tell Steve that I didn't leave the Borg because of what they said, or didn't say, but because of what they did and didn't do. The Borg can cut down all the trees in the world and publish words on all the paper they make therewith, but it will not equal the results of their actions. A person can tell me they love me and cheishes me and only want good for me, but after a few body blows, it becomes apparent what that person really is: a liar. And that is what the Borg are, liars. And I don't choose to hang out with such people, which brings us to the biggest point: God doesn't hang out with such people either. Steve's faith is based upon what the Borg promises and what they say, my faith is based upon what they do.

  • Honesty
    Honesty

    Priceless!!

    I got one on the other end of my 30 # monofilament line, too. I trolled the MSN story by saying, "Great Story!! I would like to worship Jesus with these people." He's been so busy trying to prove Jesus is not God that the anti-WT information I'm feeding him is slowly sinking in without a whimper out of his theocratic mouth. I give him about 2 more weeks and he'll go to Bethel with a launcher and some RPG's for the GB.

  • Odrade
    Odrade

    Haha, is this "Steve Kl****"? Yeah, I got a couple of whacked out mails from him too. So did Sunspot, and a few others. For a religion that prides itself on being "reasonable" and "peaceable," this guy is a real tool.

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    I`ll have a go at the first 4:

    Steve:
    However it is not us that is doing the deciding or the killing. We are only giving warnings that we saw in the Bible. Disagreeing with these will not stop what God has planned.

    No, you are giving warnings based on your very disturbed interpretation of the Bible. Now, this is no big deal for the people who have the unpleasantness of having you knock on their door. They can easily say "sod of JW, you woke me up from my afternoon nap". However, these sick scare-tactics are a problem for your own children! - and for the children of the people you are able to trick into your religion! Thousands of people have been hurt mentally by your doomsday-doctrine! I should know, I am one myself, and I know many others.

    Steve:
    The casting of doubt is the lack of faith. These many cultures have flood stories, but they say that people lived and people died.

    Of course they do. Many of the worlds different ancient cultures have these stories. Did you know that the gods in norse, greek and roman mythology are very similar? Still, there`s a long way from Greece and Rome to Norway and Sweden. Go figure.

    Steve:
    And we should learn from that and change so that we are on God's side.

    You mean the WTS`s side, you have made that clear in the responses above. What you are basically saying is that everyone who are not JWs, will be killed on Armageddon day. And I know that you JWs are very fond of what I would call "double-speak". When people point out to you, when you are walking door-to-door, that the belief that God is going to kill all 5.9995 billion people of the earth who are not JWs (around 400 million of those are children under the age of 6) is a sick, sick doctrine, you very often use the more "humane" version: "Well, we don`t know who God will save and who he won`t save, it might be that some non-JWs will survive". We both know that this "humane version" is one of your lies, but in your response to me, you made it perfectly clear what you really teach. So I`m going to print out all your responses, and distribute them on the internet, as well as with the print-out copies I`ve made, which I will distribute to everyone I know.

    No, the Bible does not call those people in Rev 7 Jews. It calls them "a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,"They are from all nations" just like Jehovah's Witnesses are.

    Yes. And the Bible calls the 144000, 12000 from each tribe, JEWS ! But oh, I forgot, the word "jew" is in WTS-doctrine "symbolic". Very funny that you belong to a religion that would interpret the word "jew" symbolic", but not a number, although it is a number that is always used symbolic in all biblical-related texts. I guess you believe that the number "666" is ingraved somewhere in the UN-building too. Or well, maybe they removed it when the WTS joined up as an NGO .

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