Daniels prophecy

by Hellrider 66 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    a Christian...I did not mean to sound arrogant when said that the Christian messianic interpretation does not account for the sense of the text in the examples I provided. That was simply my conclusion after examining these examples in detail. I wanted to explain how this interpretation takes liberties with the text, ignores the surrounding context, and is less parsimonious than the Antiochene interpretation. To do this, I provided specific examples showing that the interpretation is at odds with the wording of the text itself and/or the context provided by the parallel oracles in Daniel. I do not claim that the Antiochene interpretation is flawless and I welcome criticism as well, just as I have critically analyzed your interpretation. What I do claim is that Antiochene interpretation is most parsimonious to the text of Daniel and best represents the point of view of the author (it is also the earliest attested interpretation). Note again that I don't claim to know exactly what was in the mind of the author, but that the Antiochene interpretation makes the most sense of the text as we have it today.

    BTW, I do not deny the Christian messianic interpretation its own validity as a re-interpretation of Daniel. It has its own validity because the process of interpretation is frequently the source of new theological insights, as can be seen for instance in the development of christology in the NT and in patristic literature through midrashic reapplication of prior scripture. Texts often become meaningful in a new way when read in a different light or under new circumstances. But this meaning is usually quite distinct from the original sense of the passage in its literary context. For example, the language in Jeremiah 31:15, when read in its context, has a very different sense than it has in Matthew 2:17-18. I do not think it wrong to cite this sense as what the author originally intended, and not select the one offerred by the author of Matthew. This is done not to disrepect the author of Matthew; it done only to take the text on its own terms and see how it fits into its literary context. In the case of Daniel, one must read ch. 9 out of its context with ch. 11 and ch. 8, otherwise this would result in absurdities like the Messiah = the King of the North/little horn, and one must also impose things like parentheses on the text itself in order to make the interpretation work. It's a time-honored interpretation (or rather, family of interpretations) and has insights of its own, but for the reasons given before it is most probably not what the author of Daniel was trying to get across.

    As for Ianone, all he has offered are ad hominem attacks (e.g. "mindless atheist agnostic skeptic", "Zionist", "deception", etc.), furnishing not one scintilla of consideration of any of the facts and evidence I carefully presented. His hostility is the flip side of the same coin that Qcmbr was complaining about in his recent thread:

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/101855/1.ashx

    And with all due respect, the Antiochene interpretation of Daniel is most definitely not "atheistic". Or were the Christians who continued to hold this interpretation into the third and fourth centuries atheists?

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    Christians understand that Jesus Christ is God. As such we understand that Christ Himself inspired the writing of the entire Bible. That being the case, it does not surprise me that Jesus Christ would have inspired the writing of all parts of the Bible, a Bible that He knew would be read by both those with hearts inclined towards Him and by those with hearts hardened against Him, in much the same way in which He spoke to crowds containing both of these kinds of people while He was on earth. Not to start a discussion on the Trinity, but count me as a Christian who certainly does not count Jesus as God. Morevover, I don't understand that Christ inspired the writing of the bible. In many respects, the bible has been more of a hindrance than a help to understanding our true nature. If the rules had been followed when the Old Testament was cannonized, the book of Daniel would not have been included. As has been pointed out, it is all about Antiochus Ephinanes and was written during the Greek period. The "annointed one" is probably Cyrus, but could have been the high priest Joshua Leolia, Gumby, and Narkissos- While I find your posts very interesting, I believe you are wasting your time dealing with the Ianone and A Christian whose minds are clearly closed to truth. They seem to be happy wallowing in their mindset. Let them wallow.

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Navigator, You say that my mind is "clearly closed to truth." And you say that why? Because I don't believe that Dan. 9:24-27 was speaking of Antiochus Ephinanes? Then I guess, according to you, Jesus did not care about truth either, since according to the gospels, He understood that one of Daniel's prophecies was referring not to Ephinanes but to the Roman armies led by General Titus which would surround Jerusalem in AD 66. Matthew and Mark tell us that Jesus said the following: "Therefore when you see the abomination which causes desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place ( let the reader understand ), then those in Judea must flee to the mountains." (Matt. 24:15,16; Mark:14) In Luke's parallel account of Christ's words he makes it quite clear that when Jesus referred to this 'desolator' "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" He was referring to the Roman armies which would in the not too distant future surround and then desolate Jerusalem. For when reporting Christ's words on this subject matter he paraphrased them this way: "When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near." (Luke 21:20) So, clearly, according to the Bible itself, both Jesus and Luke understood that some prophecy of Daniel - which spoke of an 'abomination which would cause desolation' - found its fulfillment in the first century AD, at the time Rome destroyed Jerusalem. So, I ask you, if at the time Jesus referred to words "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" ( in which Daniel spoke of an 'abomination which would cause desolation' ) if He was not referring to the words of Daniel 9:27, which words "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" containing such language was He referring to? Or maybe you acknowledge that in these passages Jesus and the Gospel writers were referring to the words of Dan. 9:27 (as most cross reference Bibles indicate that they were) but you maintain that they also misunderstood Daniel 9; 24-27.

  • Ianone
    Ianone

    Gumby,Leo: Atheism/Agnosticism is the predetermined solution. Preterism is the predetermined solution for Premillenialism. Homeland Security/Patriot Acts are the predetermined solutions for the World Trade Center Attacks. Ripping the Christians limb from limb in the Roman Coliseums is the predetermined solution for Nero, himself, torching Rome.

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    Ianone

    As you well know, the "abomination standing in the holy place" is a reference to the erection of a pagan god on the altar of the temple during the time of the Macabees. The phase in Mark (let the reader understand) is an indication that Mark is herewith reproducing a document which could not have been part of an oral communication by Jesus. Many scholars believe that the document was a warning sheet distributed among Christians just prior to the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70 on which advice the Christians fled to the city of Pella east of the Jordan. This section of Mark was later copied by both Matthew and Luke.

  • Ianone
    Ianone

    The Word of God is a person, who is alive today. Christ Jesus. The Word is revealed in the hearts of men to those who seek Christ Jesus.

  • a Christian
    a Christian


    Navigator,

    You wrote: As you well know, the "abomination standing in the holy place" is a reference to the erection of a pagan god on the altar of the temple during the time of the Macabees.

    No one is denying this is true in regards to when those words are used in Dan. 11:31 and 12:11. But most Christian commentators do not believe it is true in regards to when those words are used in Dan. 9:27. They understand that reference to an "abomination" which would cause a "desolation" to refer to the Roman armies which would desolate First Century Jerusalem and her Temple. And they point to the words of Christ Himself, as recorded by Matthew, Mark, and Luke, in support of their understanding Dan. 9:27 in this way.

    I asked you if Jesus was not referring to the words of Dan. 9:27, which words "spoken of by Daniel the prophet" containing the words "abomination which causes desolation" was He referring to?

    You answered: The phrase in Mark (let the reader understand) is an indication that Mark is herewith reproducing a document which could not have been part of an oral communication by Jesus. ... This section of Mark was later copied by both Matthew and Luke.

    So you certainly seem to be saying that Jesus never spoke the words which Matthew and Mark tell us that He did, saying that "the abomination which causes desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet" would cause "those in Judea" to "flee to the mountains." And you certainly seem to be saying that Luke was mistaken when he understood that Mark and Matthew's reference to "the abomination which causes desolation which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet" to refer to "Jerusalem being surrounded by armies."

    If this is your position and/or Leolaia's position, I see no reason to discuss the Scriptures further with people who have so little respect for them.

    Mike

  • Navigator
    Navigator

    I gave up practicing "bibliolotry" many years ago. I happen to believe that there is a good deal in the new testament attributed to Jesus that he never said. Just as Daniel was written during the period of the Greek Desolation and attributed to an earlier period, it is well to remember that none of the gospel accounts were written until after the event of the Roman destruction of Jerusalem. It is easy to look back with clarity. Hindsight can often be 20/20. Even the disciples who sat at the feet of Jesus did not fully comprehend what he was teaching. They, like we still do, tried to fit him into their existing "Theological Box". It was not a comfortable fit. The claims made today for Jesus far exceed anything he claimed for himself while he was alive. I do agree, however, that he is alive today. After all, he went through the crucifiction thing to demonstrate that death is not real and can be overcome. The "sacrifice for sin" thing got added on later by the Jews converting from the Jewish religion.

  • a Christian
    a Christian

    Navigator, You wrote: I happen to believe that there is a good deal in the new testament attributed to Jesus that he never said. Just as Daniel was written during the period of the Greek Desolation and attributed to an earlier period ... I disagree with both of those statements. But you seem to believe these things quite strongly. That being the case, I see no point in discussing Daniel's "70 weeks" prophecy with you. For you don't believe it was a real prophecy anyway. And you don't even care what the Bible tells us Jesus Himself had to say on this matter. I would, however, be interested to hear how anyone who respects the Bible as being God's Word, or at least believes the words the Gospels attributed to Jesus which impact this discussion were actually spoken by Him, can say that the "abomination" referred to in Daniel 9:27 does not refer to the Roman armies which besieged Jerusalem and destroyed its Temple between the years AD 66 and 70. Mike

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    I definitely see your point, a christian. It`s very hard to consider oneself a christian without at least believing that Jesus words and life is portrayed pretty accurately in the Gospels. The "secular" view on the Bible is not unproblematic. That being said, I realise that the messianic interpretation of Daniel is a reinterpretation. There`s nothing wrong about reinterpretations. The "hard-line" christian view on the Bible, such as the belief that the "signs of the times" relate only to the time immediately before the end of the world (as in Armageddon) - leads to a lot of problems. Paul even discourages marriage in 1.Corinthians because "the time is short". So to say that reinterpretations or "double-meanings" is unbiblical, is equally problematic.

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