Paradise—Where?

by AuldSoul 15 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  AuldSoul

  re chap. 7 p. 37 Rekindle That First Love!
  14 Since they have no prospect of living in an earthly paradise, how is it that anointed Christians, such as those Ephesians, are rewarded with eating “of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God”? This could not be the restored Paradise on earth, since the 144,000 anointed Christians, including those of the congregation at Ephesus, are bought from among mankind to rule with the Lamb, Christ Jesus, on the heavenly Mount Zion as spirit sons. (Ephesians 1:5-12; Revelation 14:1, 4) Hence, the reference here must be to the heavenly gardenlike realm inherited by these conquerors. There, “in the paradise of God,” yes, in the very presence of Jehovah himself, these overcomers who have been granted immortality will continue to live eternally, as symbolized here by their eating of the tree of life.

  Okay, this is one of four times the word paradise appears in the NWT, one of the three times the word "paradeisos" appears in the Greek manuscripts. Here are the four occurrences:

  Song of Solomon 4:12-15 — A garden barred in is my sister, [my] bride, a garden barred in, a spring sealed up. Your skin is a paradise of pomegranates, with the choicest fruits, henna plants along with spikenard plants; spikenard and saffron, cane and cinnamon, along with all sorts of trees of frankincense, myrrh and aloes, along with all the finest perfumes; [and] a spring of gardens, a well of fresh water, and trickling streams from Leb´a·non.
  Luke 23:39-43 — But one of the hung evildoers began to say abusively to him: “You are the Christ, are you not? Save yourself and us.” In reply the other rebuked him and said: “Do you not fear God at all, now that you are in the same judgment? And we, indeed, justly so, for we are receiving in full what we deserve for things we did; but this [man] did nothing out of the way.” And he went on to say: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.” And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”
  2 Corinthians 12:1-7 — I have to boast. It is not beneficial; but I shall pass on to supernatural visions and revelations of [the] Lord. I know a man in union with Christ who, fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught away as such to the third heaven. Yes, I know such a man—whether in the body or apart from the body, I do not know, God knows—that he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak. Over such a man I will boast, but I will not boast over myself, except as respects [my] weaknesses. For if I ever do want to boast, I shall not be unreasonable, for I shall say the truth. But I abstain, in order that no one should put to my credit more than what he sees I am or he hears from me, just because of the excess of the revelations.
  Revelation 2:5-7 — “‘Therefore remember from what you have fallen, and repent and do the former deeds. If you do not, I am coming to you, and I will remove your lampstand from its place, unless you repent. Still, you do have this, that you hate the deeds of the sect of Nic·o·la´us, which I also hate. Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: To him that conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’"

  Hmmm....

  Of the three Scriptures in the NT, which conveys the idea of an earthly paradise? Any of them? No. Which conveys the idea of Paradise being heavenly?

  Well, let us consider it carefully. The evildoer alongside Jesus asked to be remembered "when [Jesus gets] into [his] kingdom." Whether we take Jesus response as "tell you today" or "tell you, today" the outcome is not altered, the evildoer is to be with Christ in Paradise. The Greek word for "with" in this instance can mean afterward so whichever way you translate Jesus comment regarding today the evildoer would be with him later on.

  If the evildoer is to be with Christ, and the evildoer is to be in Paradise, where will Christ be?

  Laying that aside a moment, we move to 2 Corinthians 12. Is it reasonable to assume that Paul, who had been Saul of Tarsus a noted student of Gamaliel, was unfamiliar with the image his choice of words would convey to his readers?

  Highest Heaven (she-may ha-shah-MA-yeem) n. Highest Heaven. The third heaven.
  Courtesy of: hebrew4christians.com

  First he states that the person described was caught away "to the third heaven" then he says the person was "caught away into Paradise." But Paradise can't be in heaven, so Paul must not have meant what he said. He must have meant something else because that understanding does not harmonize with what the rest of the Bible says about Paradise. Right?

  Could it be that it doesn't harmonize with the rest of what the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society says about Paradise?

  Lastly, we consider Revelation 2:7—particularly the WTS explanation of Revelation 2:7. While it is true that it couldn't be referring to the tree of life in the restored Paradise on earth, it could easily refer to the tree of life in Jehovah's presence where Paul wrote of someone being caught away to. In their explanation they call this paradise "the paradise of God" and say this means being in the presence of Jehovah. But the word is the same as that used by Jesus and Paul.

  Jesus meant the evildoer would be raised to Paradise. Paul meant the person was caught into the presence of God, into the third heaven, into God's abode, into Paradise.

  The Scriptures are in harmony on this point. It is the Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses that argue against God's Word and twist it to their own meaning. In doing so, they divide against even themselves because they cannot consistently apply their misinterpretation among even three Scriptures.

  Do they have the Truth™? On the 2003 Watchtower Library CD-ROM the word Paradise is used by WTS publications 9,336 times.

  It is used only three times in the NT. As has been demonstrated, all three times can mean a heavenly paradise. In one case, even they say it must mean a heavenly paradise. In another case, the Scripture plainly says it was in heaven but the WTS tries to explain that away. In the final case, Jesus said the evildoer would be with him in Paradise, not the other way around. How could that mean on earth unless Jesus is to be on earth?

  Something to think on.

  AuldSoul
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  Nathan Natas

  The world of the imagination is remarkable, isn't it?
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  mdb

  Well, let us consider it carefully. The evildoer alongside Jesus asked to be remembered "when [Jesus gets] into [his] kingdom." Whether we take Jesus response as "tell you today" or "tell you, today" the outcome is not altered, the evildoer is to be with Christ in

  The difference in the outcome is quite evident. Interrestingly, the reason for this punctuation change (which seems quite harmless), is to keep the thief from being with Jesus in “today” (which would signify conscious existence after death).

  The phrase, “Truly, I say to you”, in the Greek is amen soi lego and occurs 74 times in the Gospels. It is always used as an introductory expression. Jesus used it to introduce a truth that was very important. In 73 of 74 times, the NWT places a break (such as a comma) immediately after the phrase. Luke 23:43 is the only exception in the NWT (to support their doctrine).
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  Frogleg

  This is probably off subject,but...

  "these overcomers who have been granted immortality will continue to live eternally, as symbolized here by their eating of the tree of life."

  Wait a minute, here is where the tree of life gets mentioned:

  Ge3:22

  “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—”

  Does "time indefinite" = forever? It appears that the Borg believe that if Adam and Eve had eaten of the Tree of Life, they would have become immortal? If that would have been possible, then the entire Bible has been turned to toilet paper. If the tree of life bestows immortality, the serpent would have to be the dumbest SOB ever in existence, because long before I would have been hissing at Eve, I would've munched at least a bushel of the Tree of Life. I'm surprised the Borg doesn't begin and end every meeting, book, prayer with "Hocus Pocus" and "Abracadabra".
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  jeanniebeanz

  I'm surprised the Borg doesn't begin and end every meeting, book, prayer with "Hocus Pocus" and "Abracadabra".

  lol...how very true. Actually, the only paradise that I believe in is a hot bubble bath after a long days work followed by a foot rub and other bedroom antics. :)

  J
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  Honesty

  Excellent thread!!

  It brings some other questions into the equation that the Watchtower corporation wishes to avoid discussing:

  Hebrews 3:1 refers to "holy brothers, partakers of the heavenly calling". In Mark 3:35, Jesus says, "Whoever does the will of God, this one is my brother..." Therefore, according to the Bible, whoever does the will of God is a brother of Jesus and a partaker of the heavenly calling. How can this be if the Watchtower Society teaches that only 144,000 people go to heaven?

  Hebrews 11:16, in speaking about some of the faithful people of the Old Testament (Abel, Noah, Abraham, etc.) says, "But now they are reaching out for a better [place], that is, one belonging to heaven..." and,"... their God for he has made a city ready for them." The footnote on the word "city" refers to HEAVENLY Jerusalem of Hebrews 12:22 and Revelation 21:2. How can this be since according to the teachings of the Watchtower Society, the only people who will go to heaven are the 144,000 spirit anointed who have been chosen from people who lived after Christ died?

  If there are 144,000 spirit anointed people who have a heavenly hope, and a great crowd of people who have another hope of everlasting life on paradise earth, why does Paul say that there is only ONE hope (Eph 4:4), instead of two? Similarly, if there is one body of people that will go to heaven, and another completely different body of people that will live forever in paradise on earth, why does Paul say that everyone who is baptized, is baptized into "ONE body" (1Cor 12:13)? What do the words "all" and "one" mean to you?

  Rev 7:11 says that "before the throne" is in heaven where "all the angels were standing". Rev 14:2-3 says "And I heard a sound out of heaven ... And they were singing as if a new song before the throne ...", also showing that "before the throne" is in heaven. Rev 7:9 says,"... look, a great crowd ... standing before the throne..." and Rev 7:14-15 says, "...These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation ... That is why they are before the throne of God ..." Therefore, if "before the throne " means in heaven (Rev 7:11, 14:2-3), and the "great crowd" is "before the throne" (Rev 7:9, 7:14-15), where does that mean that the great crowd will be? Where does Rev 19:1 say that the great crowd will be?

  If the great crowd is to have everlasting life on paradise EARTH, why does 1Thess 4:17 say, "...we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to MEET THE LORD IN THE AIR; and thus we shall always be with the Lord"? If Armageddon were to start next week, as a Jehovah’s Witness in good standing with the WTBTS, wouldn’t you be one of "the living who are surviving"? Would you expect to "meet the Lord in the air"? If not, then how do you explain this verse?
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  BluesBrother

  I just thought I would add the WTS comment on 2 Cor 12. They say we are in the paradise now, (Is this as good as it gets?) ....................................................................................................................................................................................................

  *** w70 12/15 pp. 767-768 Questions from Readers ***

  "•

  What is the "third heaven" and "paradise" to which 2 Corinthians 12:2, 4 refers?—R. B., U.S.A.

  At 2 Corinthians 12:2-4 the apostle Paul describes one who was "caught away . . . to the third heaven" and "into paradise." Since there is no mention in the Scriptures of any other person having had such an experience, it seems likely that this was the apostle Paul’s own experience. Whereas some have endeavored to relate Paul’s reference to the "third heaven" to the early Rabbinical view that there were stages of heaven, even a total of "seven heavens," this view finds no support in the Scriptures.

  When we examine the context, it becomes apparent that the apostle is not referring to the heavens within earth’s atmospheric expanse or to outer space. The apostle wrote: "I shall pass on to supernatural visions and revelations of the Lord. I know a man in union with Christ who, fourteen years ago—whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know; God knows—was caught away as such to the third heaven. . . . he was caught away into paradise and heard unutterable words which it is not lawful for a man to speak."—2 Cor. 12:1-4.

  It therefore appears that the reference to the "third heaven" relates to the spiritual heavens and indicates the superlative degree of the rapture in which this vision was seen. In this regard, one can note the way words and expressions are repeated three times at Isaiah 6:3, Ezekiel 21:27, John 21:15-17 and Revelation 4:8, evidently for the purpose of expressing an intensification of the quality or idea.

  Thus the paradise envisioned by the apostle Paul could refer to a spiritual state among God’s people, as in the case of fleshly Israel. This can be seen from the fact that the Christian congregation was also God’s "field under cultivation," his spiritual vineyard, rooted in Jesus Christ and bearing fruit to God’s praise. (1 Cor. 3:9; John 15:1-8) As such it had replaced the nation of Israel in God’s favor.—Compare Matthew 21:33-43.

  ...........[edited to save space. Blues]

  Paul’s vision, nevertheless, must logically have applied to some future time. An apostasy was due to set in among the Christian congregation, was already working in Paul’s day, and would result in a condition like that of a field oversown with weeds. (Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43; Acts 20:29; 2 Thess. 2:3, 7; compare Hebrews 6:7, 8.) So, Paul’s paradise vision would not reasonably apply while such was the case. Rather, it would evidently relate to the time of the "harvest season" when the genuine Christians would be gathered by the angelic reapers and would enjoy rich blessings and spiritual prosperity from God.

  The anointed footstep followers of Jesus Christ who are living today are indeed enjoying a spiritual paradise, as can be seen from the spiritual prosperity now evident among them. In fact, the spiritual prosperity today under God’s established kingdom is more glorious than that enjoyed during the apostolic days, the initial period of Christianity. Sharing in today’s spiritual prosperity are the "great crowd" of "other sheep" who look forward to enjoying a literal paradise here on the earth in the near future.—Rev. 21:1-4."
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  JosephMalik

  AuldSoul, Where will this paradise be? Here on earth of course. This is man’s home, this is why it took a human sacrifice to redeem man and this is where all resurrection will take place. You said: If the evildoer is to be with Christ, and the evildoer is to be in Paradise, where will Christ be? Here on earth as stated in scripture: Christ will be here on earth when he comes again according to this promise: Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. You said regarding Paul: First he states that the person described was caught away "to the third heaven" then he says the person was "caught away into Paradise." But Paradise can't be in heaven, so Paul must not have meant what he said. Or this is simply a failure in interpretation. Heaven was used by Paul for government and ruler-ship here on earth. Paul had a vision of the Kingdom yet to come the third heaven under which mankind will serve God much like John did in the Revelation. The Law covenant, the New Covenant, and the Kingdom itself are the three heavens that God established to determine man’s worthiness for eternal life. There is no provision for human beings to become non-human beings in scripture. According to its Kind is a basic rule of God. This is why the Word had to become flesh. It was as a human that Jesus regained the human immortality Adam lost for us. It was His human sacrifice that can now redeem immortal humans beings to fill the earth. Thus all resurrection will take place here on earth in a Kingdom ruled by Him. Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  Honesty, If anything 1 Thess 4:17 simply demonstrates how fast things will take place when our Lord comes back in the clouds as promised. No need to wait until His feet actually touch the ground during this descent for such resurrection to take place. Much like walking on water which even Peter was able to do until it appeared unreal for him as well. Just who did you think the angels were in this text: 31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: 32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: The Saints of course, the messengers (angels) of the New Covenant that will make up this Kingdom along with the sheep He selects (resurrects) from mankind to live in it as well. Joseph
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  Leolaia

  AuldSoul....You may want to read the following two posts of mine on what other Jewish and Christian writings of the time had to say about "paradise", the general idea was that paradise (= the Garden of Eden) is located in one of the heavens during the present age (= it was not destroyed in the Flood but preserved with God since it is his own abode), and it is a place where the righteous may presently experience rest in their intermediate state, and which will be opened to all the righteous/elect after Judgment Day. Some chiliast traditions also picture the Garden of Eden was being restored again on earth (= a new earth), as it was in the beginning of creation.

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/79724/1295428/post.ashx#1295428

  http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/79724/1296107/post.ashx#1296107