Did Jehovah tell the first lie?

by nicolaou 42 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • nicolaou
    nicolaou

    Oh what twisted and tortuous logic you use defd.

    Did adam and eve die? Yes.The day they ate of that fruit the dying process began.

    By your reasoning we all 'died' on the day we were born! You are also guilty of misrepresenting God!! Rather presumptious don't you think? After all, he did not say "in the day you eat from it you will positively begin the dying process that will lead to your death after hundreds of years and countles children and grandchildren". No, he said; "in the day you eat from it you will positively die".

    A nice, plain, simple statement - but it didn't happen. It was a lie.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    he posted a flaming sword at the gate.
    That made me realize something: How would Adam and Eve have recognized what a sword is when they saw it? It would have been a meaningless symbol to them since they did not know what a sword was, right?

    Swords were around by the time the author(s) of Genesis wrote it. Whether it actually happened is irrelevant, but if it did actually happen at all, then there was probably something spinning that impeded entry, which by the time it was written about, was likened to a sword as the most suitable description. It doesn't prove that God invented swords or anything silly like that.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro
    nic. Jehovah does not tell lies. Did adam and eve die? Yes.The day they ate of that fruit the dying process began. You are missing the whole point of that account. Satan the devil wants us to disobey Jehovah. He even tried to get Jesus to disobey Jehovah. Jesus knows Satan well. Jesus called him the FATHER of the lie and a liar. That is good enough for me.

    Do you actually have any evidence whatsoever that Jehovah has ever actually said anything at all ever, let alone lied? Saying that the Bible is evidence is about as reasonable as saying that Bill Gates will pay you a million dollars if you forward an e-mail to a gazillion people.

    Of course, even within the scope of defending the scripture, the reasonable answer is that the term 'day' didn't mean a literal 24-hour period. Then there's that whole bit about Satan trying to get Jesus to disobey Jehovah. According to the Gospel of John, Jesus was actually at the wedding in Cana when he was supposedly in the wilderness being tempted, so it seems someone is lying.

    Start e-mailing... maybe that $million is just around the corner.

  • undercover
    undercover
    Jehovah does not tell lies. Did adam and eve die? Yes.The day they ate of that fruit the dying process began. You are missing the whole point of that account.

    If you're going to take the Bible at it's word then you have to accept that God lied. Here's the proof:

    Genesis 2: 15-17 And Jehovah God proceeded to take the man and settle him in the garden of E´den to cultivate it and to take care of it. And Jehovah God also laid this command upon the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.”

    Notice that God said "in the day you eat from it you will positively die" Not, "you will begin to die". Not, "you will slowly die". Not, "you'll die during this 'creative' day. "in THE day you eat from it you will POSITIVELY die." Period. No amount of rationalization can change the statement made.

    Now, what happened after God told Adam that?

    Genesis 3: 1-5 Now the serpent proved to be the most cautious of all the wild beasts of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it began to say to the woman: “Is it really so that God said YOU must not eat from every tree of the garden?” At this the woman said to the serpent: “Of the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat. But as for [eating] of the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden, God has said, ‘Y OU must not eat from it, no, YOU must not touch it that YOU do not die.’” At this the serpent said to the woman: “Y OU positively will not die. For God knows that in the very day of YOUR eating from it YOUR eyes are bound to be opened and YOU are bound to be like God, KNOWING good and bad.”

    So, now the confrontation has been set up. God says the punishment for eating the fruit is death the day of eating it. The Serpent says that death will not happen but that Adam will become like God knowing good and bad.

    So Adam eats the fruit. What happens after that?

    Genesis 3: 17-19 And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice and took to eating from the tree concerning which I gave you this command, ‘You must not eat from it,’ cursed is the ground on your account. In pain you will eat its produce all the days of your life. And thorns and thistles it will grow for you, and you must eat the vegetation of the field. In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.”

    Genesis 3: 22-24 And Jehovah God went on to say: “Here the man has become like one of us in knowing good and bad, and now in order that he may not put his hand out and actually take [fruit] also from the tree of life and eat and live to time indefinite,—” With that Jehovah God put him out of the garden of E´den to cultivate the ground from which he had been taken. And so he drove the man out and posted at the east of the garden of E´den the cherubs and the flaming blade of a sword that was turning itself continually to guard the way to the tree of life.

    Summation:

    1. God said Adam would die the day of eating the fruit
    2. The Serprent said he would not die but become like God knowing good and bad.
    3. Adam ate the fruit
    4. Adam did not die that day.
    5. Adam became like God, knowing good and bad.
    6. God curses the ground for Adam to toil on as punishment for eating the fruit.
    7. To keep Adam and Eve from eating from the tree of life, they are driven from the garden and the garden is guarded.

    In review:

    God lied, the Serpent didn't.

    If you want to intrepret it differently than what's written, that's up to you, but going strictly by how the story is written, God told the first lie.

  • Nate Merit
    Nate Merit

    Hi Goldminer

    It doesnt take a thousand years to eat a piece of fruit.

    Nate

  • Nate Merit
    Nate Merit

    Hi defd

    Biblegod doesn't lie? Hmmm.

    " Also keep in mind 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 (the definition of Love), and 1 John 4:18 (“God is Love”). By so doing, you will be able to obey 1 John 4:1: "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but test the spirits whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." These false prophets and lying spirits are to be found right in the pages of the Bible, as we have seen: "Behold, Jehovah hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee." "And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I JEHOVAH HAVE DECEIVED THAT PROPHET, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." (2 Chronicles 18:18-22, 1 Kings 22:19-23, Ezekiel 14:9 American Standard Version of 1901, emphasis mine)

    Jehovah is Satan, for his behavior gives his true identity away. "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thorns, or figs from thistles?" (Matthew 7:16) The name Satan means “Adversary” because Jehovah is the Adversary and Counterfeit of the True God. Consider the words of Jesus concerning Satan/Jehovah in John 8:44: "He is a liar, and the Father of Lies." The True God is not the Father of lies, for "It is impossible for God to lie." (Hebrews 6:19) So, then, what do these verses reveal about the identity of the god Jehovah? 1Kings 22:19-23: "And Micaiah said, Therefore hear thou the word of Jehovah: I saw Jehovah sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left. And Jehovah said, Who shall entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead? And one said on this manner; and another said on that manner. And there came forth a spirit, and stood before Jehovah, and said, I will entice him. And Jehovah said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and will be a LYING SPIRIT in the mouth of all his prophets. And Jehovah said, Thou shalt entice him, and shalt prevail also: GO FORTH AND DO SO. Now therefore, behold, JEHOVAH HATH PUT A LYING SPIRIT IN THE MOUTH OF THESE THY PROPHETS; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee." This is repeated in 2 Chronicles 18:18-22 "Behold, JEHOVAH HATH PUT A LYING SPIRIT IN THE MOUTH OF THESE THY PROPHETS; and Jehovah hath spoken evil concerning thee." "Then the LORD sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech." Judges 9:23 (The fact that Jehovah has the evil spirits at his command is a CLUE as to Jehovah’s real identity! In all of the verses just quoted it is Jehovah himself that puts the lying spirit in the mouth of the deceiving prophets, he does not merely “allow” them to be deceived. Ergo, Jehovah is not the God of whom Jesus spoke, but is Satan the Father of Lies! The above verses also demonstrate that “all the host of heaven” (at least Jehovah’s “heaven”) are eagerly standing by to deceive and do evil at Jehovah’s bidding! These are the Archons, the elohim, they are not from the Heavenly Father of Jesus, they are not from the Pleroma.

    According to 1 Corinthians 13:4-8, the True God does not even think evil, let alone send lying evil spirits to deceive people and then speak evil of those he deceives! "And if the prophet be deceived, I JEHOVAH HAVE DECEIVED THAT PROPHET, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." (Ezekiel 14: 9 American Standard Version of 1901) Here Jehovah actively deceives a prophet (he does not merely passively “allow” a prophet to be deceived) and then destroys the prophet he deceives! (The Hebrew word translated as “deceived” is “pathah” and it can mean delude, allure, deceive, entice, persuade, or flatter, depending on the context. In this context it means to deceive or delude. See Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon #6601 for the full discussion) Can you not see the satanic nature of Jehovah’s behavior?

    Many modern Bible translators, in an effort to clean up their god's despicable behavior, bend over backward to ‘translate’ this verse in deceitful ways that obscure the plain meaning of the Hebrew text: that Jehovah himself deceived the false prophets. Some of the worst offenders in such ‘translation’ are the New International Version, the New American Standard Bible, the Amplified Bible, the Darby translation, and the New King James Version. By his own admission the god Jehovah is a liar and deceiver! Jehovah is the Father of lies, Satan! Remember that it was Jehovah that told the Original Lie in the Garden of Eden. (Genesis 2:17)

    If a spirit of rage, hate, violence or murder is rising in you as you read these words, you need to realize that you are behaving just as your Father, Satan, behaves because you are filled with the spirit of Satan/Jehovah. For the fruits of the unholy spirit are "hatred, jealousies, contentiousness, outbursts of wrath, envy, murders.” (Galatians 5:19-21) Whereas the Fruits of the Holy Spirit are "Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control." (Galatians 5:22)

    The fruits of the unholy spirit, such as hatred, contentiousness, jealousy, outbursts of wrath, envy, murders, are the very emotions and activities that Jehovah indulges in over and over again! So once more we see a powerful contrast between Jehovah god and the True God, the Heavenly Father revealed by Jesus Christ. "Ye shall know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorn-bushes, or figs gathered from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit." (Matthew 7:16-17) Intolerance, hatred, persecution, and murder are the fruits that have largely characterized mainstream Christian behavior throughout Christian history.

  • Slave1111
    Slave1111
    This is how I always understood it:

    2Peter 3:8 says"...one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day".So when God told Adam he would die on that day,possibly he meant within a thousand years and not within that 24 hour period.Also Adam would have been as good as dead in a spiritual sense in God's eyes.Genesis 5:5 says Adam lived for 930 years so he died within that 1000 year "day".

    Goldminer

    This understanding holds true....... Slave1111

  • sf
    sf

    Dang Nate, that was a very interesting read.

    sKally

  • undercover
    undercover
    one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day".So when God told Adam he would die on that day,possibly he meant within a thousand years and not within that 24 hour period.Also Adam would have been as good as dead in a spiritual sense in God's eyes.Genesis 5:5 says Adam lived for 930 years so he died within that 1000 year "day".
    This understanding holds true.......

    Whose understanding would that be?

    That's an interpretation, sure...but the story does not say that nor does it imply that. If you read the account as it is written, then that "understanding" doesn't mean anything.

    Add thousands of years of religious mythology and people can twist the story to fit their beliefs if they feel the need to justify that God was good and the Serpent was evil.

  • Nate Merit
    Nate Merit

    Hi sf!

    I spent a couple minutes squinting at your avatar. I like how it looks, but even with my trifocals on I am clueless!

    I'm pleased you enjoyed the little cut-and-paste from Jehovah Unmasked.

    NNNNNate

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