Of course i do little toe. However as a human I am under obligation to follow the commands of my creator. Birthdays are out. Whats the big deal anyway? Really.
d.
Birthday celebrations and customs - Are they for Christians?
by AlmostAtheist 173 Replies latest jw friends
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seattleniceguy
However as a human I am under obligation to follow the commands of my creator. Birthdays are out.
But, defd, that's exactly the point. If the creator really cared about birthdays, if it actually meant anything to him, you'd think he would have made it clear. You know, something like, "Oh yeah, and don't celebrate your birthdays." I mean, he certainly made it clear how he feels about murder, adultery, theft, and so on. Do you really think God was like, "Okay, let's see...I made myself pretty clear about most of the stuff that irks me. But you know, it's boring to tell them everything straight up. Why don't I make some secret no-no's and hide them in a couple stories about 1000 pages apart. Yeah. That'll be cool."
The whole point of this conversation is not, "Hey, God says birthdays are bad, but that's dumb." The point is, "Hey, I don't think God really gives a flying squirrel about birthdays."
Hope that clears things up.
SNG -
Super_Becka
I'm with SNG here - the whole "birthdays are bad" thing that JWs (and other sects) follow is purely interpretative, not based on any written command from God.
God said "thou shalt not steal" and "thou shalt not murder" and all of that in the Ten Commandments, and other orders were made clear in the text of the Bible, He likes to make His desires and directions known CLEARLY, He doesn't hide things in the text of the Bible and hope that somehow, all of us lowly humans will manage to dig them out and follow encrypted commands. What if we never find them?? Are we doomed to go to Hell because we couldn't find that one, encoded command that was oh-so-important but yet we somehow overlooked??
And the funny thing is, the next sect that appears will find something else that we've apparently "missed" in the Bible and will condemn all of us to the depths of Hell for not following some new, ludicrious order. I'm willing to bet that the next sect bans pants because Jesus didn't wear them - who's with me??
And of course, this argument can be applied to most things that the WTS has banned, like Christmas. All of these doctrines come purely from the WTS's interpretation of the Bible. They interpreted it that way, that's what they think it means, but that most certainly doesn't make it completely and utterly RIGHT. Unless there's a specific statement claiming that birthdays are bad (or Christmas is bad or whatever), then it has no basis in fact and is therefore merely an interpretation of what the text of the Bible says. Simple as that. If you can show me the Bible reference that clearly states "thou shalt not observe thine birthday" or "thou shalt not honour my Son with thine Christmas celebrations" or whatever, then sorry, I'm not going to believe you.
And besides, I like birthdays. Cake, friends, birthday hats, streamers, what's not to love?? And for all of you JWs or whoever who still insist on bashing birthdays - don't knock it till you try it!!
-Becka :)
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LittleToe
Derrick:
Of course i do little toe. However as a human I am under obligation to follow the commands of my creator.
I don't have an issue with anyone who takes that stance.
Birthdays are out.
No they're not, they're in, and have been with the whole human race for as long as we can remember. God never proscribed against them. Eating pork and not washing your hands before meals and even certain hairstyles, yes, but not birthdays.
Whats the big deal anyway? Really.
You're right, it's no big deal. I almost forgot mine recently. BUt that's the point - why make it a big deal one way or another? Why insist that people don't celebrate them? I refer to your opinion evidenced earlier in the thread, and requoted here:
JWS are not the only Religion that does not celebrate Birthdays. Look at this site. It is interesting and I agree with it whole souled. http://www.thercg.org/articles/abcc.html
Why so "whole-souled" if it's no big deal? Further, would you say that your opinion on this is more or less "whole-souled" than your "love of God", for instance (for which there is a command, and for which we often fail)? I guess I'm asking, are you more successful with the things that aren't written than the things which are?
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sweetscholar
there's no question about that. that's why it's not spelled out so definitively and dogmatically in any of the 613 commandments in the Mosaic Law. agreed. and disfellowshipping would not necessarily happen if a witness celebrated his birthday. but did nothing else wrong or questionable in his life. cuz it's not a "disfellowshipping offense". it's not one of the things listed by Paul that would bar someone from "inheriting the kingdom" PER SE. but the general PRINCIPLES are there, and it's not exactly ENCOURAGED in Scripture either? you'll have to admit that much. if ANYTHING, if not explicitly prohibited in Scripture, it's more DIScouraged in Scripture. in other words, at the very least, according to the internal Biblical evidence that's there, as well as the testimony of general history and the background of certain things associated with cakes and candles and making wishes, IT'S A QUESTIONABLE PRACTICE. not to be BIBLICALLY recommended. cuz there's nothing in Scripture to exactly encourage it. but only to discourage it. it just has a bad smell to it, given the characters in the Bible who engaged in it, and the crazy horrible things that happened on those days recorded. and just the general Biblical principles. with such things as "don't follow customs of vanity and corruption and of the nations" etc.
and as far as that remark from that other guy, about "being human".
well what needs to be understood is according to the Bible, and all the phsyical facts around us, we are FALLEN HUMANS WITH CORRUPT TREACHEROUS SELF-JUSTIFYING HEARTS. (Genesis, Jeremiah, Romans)
and "lean NOT upon your own (human) understanding" (Proverbs) but in ALL your ways, take notice (acknowledge perceive) HIM, the Creator, and HE will make your paths straight."
or one of my favorites
"there exists a way that seems right to a man; but the ways of death are the ends of it afterwards."
(also in Proverbs)
one other thing about the "human" remark. Jesus was PERFECT HUMAN. true man, sinless and holy. and He did not celebrate the day of His own birth. and we are told to "imitate Him." you'll say that there's no clear evidence that He didn't. well if in 3 1/2 years there's no hint that He or His 12 Apostles celebrated each other's birthdays, the way they did weddings, passover and sabbaths, I think it's a safe bet that it never happened. because the passovers and sabbaths are mentioned all the time, but never any one of the 12 Apostles' birthdays, nor the Messiah's, in any of that time. I'll follow their example, not the example of Herod the Maniac, nor that of Pharaoh the Pagan.
it's not easy being a true genuine total narrow-road separated sanctified Bible-believing Bible-following real Christian. again though, celebrating your birthday is NOT the worst thing in the world, but it's not exactly the most holy or noblest or most Biblical either. so I agree. a balanced view is needed. not a dogmatic one. but an honest one. not one that suits our wishes and and "human understandings, emotions, affections, traditions, or preferences." if the Bible puts birthday celebrations in a questionable light at the very least, then why shouldn't JWs, who seek to follow the Bible ultra closely ??
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sweetscholar
the Bible DOES condemn pagan Christmas. big time. not just that birthday celebrations in general are questionable and discouraged in Scripture. but because Christmas in particular is a mixing of the true with the false, light with darkness, Christ with idols. 1,2 Corinthians. which the Bible DOES CONDEMN AND PROHIBIT SO SUPER CLEARLY. Read Jeremiah 10 where "tree decoration" is called "vanity of the nations". when it's in a religous context.
principles are there for a reason. "touch not the unclean thing" in both Testaments. in the context of religious pollution and corruption and "dungy idols" Ezekiel, Isaiah. December 25th is a pagan date right off the bat. pagan trees, pagan sun god worship, saturnalia, solstice, reindeer, mistle toe, all pagan and demonic in origin, and all dumped on Christ's supposed "birthday". and you think the Bible doesn't condemn that kind of thing? the principles are there. "WRITTEN AFORE TIME, for OUR INSTRUCTION" Romans 15. "do not partake of the table of the Lord and the table of demons" (1,2 Corinthians) all the baggage and trappings of pagan Christmas find no backing or support or origin in the Holy Bible, but in unholy Babylon. that's just an encyclopedic fact, not an opinion. as well as a Biblical fact. not just an "interpretation".
read Jeremiah 10 slowly, carefully, and closely, and honestly. Read Isaiah and Ezekiel. "dungy idols" mixed with the Bible. yikes. read 1st and 2nd Corinthians and Revelation Chapter 9. carefully. those things are in the Bible for what then? do be ignored, watered down, side-stepped, or cut out with Jehudi's pen-knife? because "what's not to love about those things" emotionalism? I understand that it's hard to drop pagan emotional traditional things. but Christ called it a hard road and a "narrow door" and "carry your torture stake" for reasons. He also said "he that does not hate father, mother, wife, or children for My sake is not worthy of Me." what was meant? not literal "hating" but that it would seem like "hating" to uptight mothers on "mother's day" who don't receive cards anymore from their JW sons, and she cries "you hate me, you hate me!" that actually happened to a witness friend of mine.
no. what's meant is that it would seem like hate because the true Christian puts Christ and the Bible ahead of any humans, even family members. it means to love Christ MORE !!! and you don't honor or love Christ by mixing and dumping pagan junk on His supposed "birthday" on a pagan date, with no sanction in Scripture whatsoever. there are REASONS the Witnesses do what they do and abstain from what they abstain from. Biblical reasons, and not just "wild interpretations" taken from the air. arbitrarily. I know it suits many to believe that. but they need to ask themselves why they're so quick to believe that. is it for Biblical reasons or for more "human" emotional "seems right in my own eyes" type reasons. think about it.
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LittleToe
Finally I get to meet sweetscholar - welcome to the board
This isn't a Christmas thread, so I'm afraid I'm going to ignore half of what you wrote as being off-topic. Let's not clutter the debate with extraneous, irrelevant material, eh?
disfellowshipping would not necessarily happen if a witness celebrated his birthday
I disagree.
As an Elder, if had heard that someone was making an open display of celebrating their Birthday and thus causing "uncleanness" in the congregation (as per WTS rules) I would have had something to say about it.
On the subject of "beiung human", not everything that the human heart can conjour up is bad, even if you want to take the stance of it all being "tainted with sin". An example would be the remarkable acts of heroism that some people display, and the wonderful acts of secret charity that abound.
This is pertinant, as the giving of gifts and marking of milestones or achievements in life, is NOT condemned in the bible in the slightest.
Birthdays are no more pagan than applauding a good speech (or a not-so-good Public Talk). Of course cutting off someone's head for not applauding might be construed as a little excessive and maybe barbaric, but certainly not pagan.
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LittleToe
...think about it.
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AlmostAtheist
Hey SS,
Thank you so much for responding. It's hard for me to expand my knowledge of stuff like this when there's no one around that disagrees with me!
but to other one, I have to say that "driving cars" and "wearing pants" is not a good comparison to pagan vain worldly birthday celebrations, that only sinners not saints engaged in.
That's true, and that's why I don't make such references in my birthday refutation document. In that document, I cited makeup. In the Bible, there are only two references to people wearing "eye paint", both of the people were murderers, neither of them were faithful to God. Makeup is also "pagan" in origin. I'm asking you (and by extension, the Watchtower) why birthdays are condemned, but using the exact same reasoning, makeup gets a free pass?
the candles and the cake only add "icing" (pardon the pun) to the point (being from Druid devil worship, "making a wish" to what? the background was a sacred demon god. religious overtones with candles and "making a wish.") that it's a no no for pure holy separated sanctified untainted Biblical Christians.
"icing", hee hee! I'm glad we can laugh while we debate. Honest, friendly people can disagree and a discussion need not be an argument. I hope we can always have a comfortable discussion on any subject.
Your point is essentially that since the trappings of birthday celebrations have pagan origins, that is a reason for Christians to shun them. If that's a rule to live by, then you're probably right. However, wouldn't it make sense to evenly apply that rule? Again I think of eye makeup. The Awake came right out and said that pinata's were ok for Christians, even though they have false religious origins.
I guess I have less of a problem with forbidding birthdays and more of a problem with the arbitrary way that the rules are applied. Do you see where I'm coming from?
but pagan self-glorification creature worship days have been around since Cain.
Here's another not-evenly-applied rule. What exactly is "self-glorification"? Is having a baby shower bringing too much glory to the new mother? If not, why not? When a pioneer is announced from the platform at the Kingdom Hall, is that too "glorifying"? If not, why not? How are these "glories" different from the glory brought by a birthday celebration?
and as for Job, that's hardly solid proof. "his day" means necessarily "birthday"? that's conjecture at best. a desperate attempt at worst.
I agree with you. There is considerable disagreement among Bible readers as to whether this "day" was a birthday or not. I don't see any reason to believe that it was, and my birthday document doesn't touch on it. Interestingly, the link DefD pointed me to says that it WAS a birthday and uses it as an argument AGAINST celebrating them. He argues that Job's kids celebrated their birthdays, and Satan was allowed to kill them for it! (I don't think even the Watchtower would buy that argument!)
also, wedding anniversaries, are in the vain of "wedding parties" which Jesus not only did not condemn but participated in and made more enjoyable (turning water into true wine).
This still wouldn't explain why baby showers are considered appropriate. And I don't quite see equating a "wedding party" with a wedding anniversary. They are separate types of celebrations with their own traditions. Did the Jews celebrate their wedding anniversaries?
and you mean to tell me that in 3 1/2 years of Jesus' life and ministry (as well as before His ministry) there would be no incidental recording or mentioning of any of the 12 Apostles or Him celebrating any one of their birthdays, yet the Passover and Sabbath were always mentioned?
You state this as if it were surprising. The Passover and Sabbaths were commands to the Jews, of course they did them. Birthday celebrations were not part of their tradition, so of course they did not celebrate them. Why didn't they? Why don't Americans celebrate "boxing day"? Americans have no religious objection to Boxing Day, it's just not part of their culture. What proof exists that the Jews avoided birthday celebrations for religious reasons?
...that BAD PEOPLE were doing it. in other words, if you see two occasions, one in each "Testament" of "birthday celebrations" being done, and the only two characters were NOT people like Moses, Elijah, David, Isaiah, Jesus, Peter, or Paul, but vile pagans, then the fact that "bad things happened on those days" is mayber 25% of the reason to be suspicious of it.
Already addressed. Forbid makeup, too, on that same basis and I'll leave the subject alone. Really, it's not about birthdays, it's about arbitrarily making up rules, then backfilling reasoning and scriptures into it to justify it. If the reasoning and scriptures were evenly applied, it wouldn't be an issue.
it all boils down to 'be ye holy as I am holy'.
Well, yes, it boils down to that. But we are trying to establish what is meant by "holy". Some people feel it is a sin for a woman to cut her hair. You probably disagree. For them, holiness means keeping her hair long. Who is right? It isn't at all about being holy, it's about defining holy.
and Jeremiah 10 condemns "way of the nations" as "vanity" and "hot air". "tree decoration" and customs etc.
Actually, the Watchtower has admitted that Jeremiah's "decorating a tree" bit has nothing to do with Christmas, and is instead an example of creating an idol. Much like in Isaiah, where the idolator cuts down a tree, warms himself with half it, and turns the other half into a god.
This is another "be holy" argument. Yes, god commands that his people be holy. But does he command that women wear long hair? Or that his people abstain from meat on Fridays? Or that they shun birthdays? Simply calling all those things "unholy" doesn't make them so.
Summary time!
our main reasons that the witnesses of Jehovah don't celebrrate birthdays.
(ONE) the two times that birthday celebrations are mentioned in the Sacred Record, it was THE BAD GUYS, in both cases. never any mention of any saint of God, servant of Jehovah, ever doing that kind of thing.The exact same thing can be said of "eye paint". Exactly, point for point. Why isn't makeup also forbidden on this basis?
(TWO) each of those two times, something bad happened. heads got chopped off. bad omen. bad smell.
Again, makeup. Both examples of makeup wearers were murderers. Forbid both and we're square. As long as it's an arbitrary rule, we have a problem.
(THREE) also, it's a form of self-glorification and vanity. (JWs are into worshipping God, not self).
What about the many forms of "self-glorification" that JW's don't forbid? (Baby showers, wedding anniversaries, pioneer annoncements) If they forbid all forms of "self-glorification", I'll shut up. Until then, they are simply making up rules, then making up excuses for them.
(FOUR) and also, there are clear PRINCIPLES in the Bible about "do not follow the way of the nations" and "do not be worried about them" and "their customs are hot air". and "be ye separate" and "touch not the unclean thing" and be ye holy, for I am holy", and "do not mix Christ with idols" (ala the pagan Christmas sun-god tree worship that is dumped on Christ's suppposed "birthday") , and "do not mix the true with the false", and love God with your WHOLE HEART AND MIND, and to empty "self". general principles, that are not really all that compatible with the vain custom of "birthday celebrations" with all its pagan trappings, baggage, and background.
All I'm asking for is even application of these supposed "clear principles". In for a penny, in for a pound. Forbid all things with pagan origins, forbid all 'things of the world', forbid all things with a taint of falsehood, and I would respect their decision. After all, if you claim you follow the Bible, and you can back it up from that book, more power to you. But if you're making it up as you go, and cherry-picking verses to make it seem plausible, that's an entirely different matter.
Defd asked, "What's the big deal?" The big deal is that the Watchtower says the Bible condemns birthdays. If it does, then they're fine. If it doesn't, then they have violated some extremely explicit commands in the Bible. This is no vague reference that needs pages of reasoning to justify, it's clear. The bible says on several occasions, "do not add to this word" and "do not go beyond what is written". If they are forbidding even one thing -- even a relatively minor thing -- without proper scriptural backing, then they are in violation of these commands.
That doesn't sound like a big deal to you? I'll grant you, it's no biggee to me since I think the Bible is uninspired. But to anyone that believes God actually cares about what's in the Bible, this should be a very big deal indeed.
Dave
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sweetscholar
hi. to AlmostAtheist. I appreciat your responses and points. to your "eye paint" hang up. and your reference to 2 Kings 9:30 and so forth. Jezebel is said to have painted her eyes, and in Jeremiah, it's firguratively said of whorish Israel. but analyze it carefully in 2 Kings 9. it's also said that Jezebel "made up her hair beautifully". are you gonna throw that in as well? obviously that was just narration and reporting of what happened. also, the WT DOES discourage heavy use of makeup. not total use, but HEAVY EXTRAVAGANT WHORISH USE. didn't you ever read that? but some Protestant fanatical uptight groups (high Pentecostals) forbid it completely. just like the Baptists forbid any drinking of alcohol, saying that Jesus turned water into unfermented grape juice, despite the fact that the caterer at that wedding party said "they would get drunk later." (John 2:10) we know that. but to compare "eye paint" with blowing out candles and "making a wish" to a Druid demon god (sorry but that IS the root of background of that, people) is a bit of a stretch. though I concede that it is a point to consider. just not a very strong point. "eye paint" is whatever. adornment. and the WT has discouraged that sort of thing when it's done IMmoderately and sluttishly. so what? but moderate sober use of makeup is fine. it's said of Christ's bride, figuratively, that "she made herself ready." so there's a balance.
and to the other dude who mentioned that you would get disfellowshipped if "openly displaying it" well yeah, if there's blatant flaunting of what's discouraged by the Slave and by the Bible. it DEPENDS. if it's done by someone more discreetly, and done with the view of trying to not stumble others, but secretly, like a secret weakness and whatnot, then there would be no DFing. I asked and checked that out. that person would just be talked to of course, but can't be forced to do anything. he or she would be looked at as not the best example though. and no speaking privileges or whatever. but NOT total shunning or expelling. the "blatant openly arrogantly flaunting it" is kind of a different thing in a way. it's not so black and white. now back to AlmostAtheist, who I wish would be TOTAL Witness of the Lord again, you mentioned other things that you purport to be "self-glorification" as much or similar to "birthday celebrations" with all their pagan vain trappings. you mentioned "baby showers". again, it has to be all things (like pieces in a puzzle) taken TOGETHER. baby showers are never put in a bad light in Scripture. whether you wanna believe it or not, BIRTHDAY CELEBRATIONS KINDA ARE !!!! and if that's the case, wedding PARTIES, are "glorifying" the couple getting married, but God knows how to carefully distinguish things.
I agree it's not so black and white, because we don't see in Exodus or Leviticus "thou must not observe the day of your birth." so it's not a hard commandment in that sense. but there are plenty of things that are not to be done that are not spelled out, but with general principles to guide us. nowhere does the Bible EXPLICITLY condemn "masturbation" chronic habitual masturbation. right? but let's get real here. the Bible condemns it IN PRINCIPLE. "deaden your body members" and "think upon pure things" and "semen" in Leviticus and its significances. and defiling the flesh. I know many don't believe it, but studies show that masturbation is NOT all that "harmless" physically. but increases blood fats in the heart and a substance called "nor-adrenaline". not good for the blood, heart, muscles, and nerves. it's not the worst thing in the world, especially if it's done once in a blue. but someone who masturbates 11 times a day does not exactly have the Bible to encourage that nonsense, right? see the point. and the thing with birthday celebrations is even more explicit in the Bible, in a sense, cuz they're actually mentioned, and not with servants of Jehovah ever doing them. only lost pagans. how boot dat? and please stop with Jezebel's eye paint already. cuz I already addressed that. she also did her hair up too. so what?
and heavy makeup is not recommended either. that's in the literature (as well as in common sense). And again, to the guy Little Toe who said "birthday celebrations are no more pagan than applauding a speech" I have to say that only someone with a "desperate heart" (Jeremiah 17:9) seeking to justify his questionable and emotional things would say something like that. AlmostAtheist, you'll agree with me on that one right? "applauding a speech" is not to be compared with what Herod and Pharaoh did, and "blowing out pagan candles" from Druid devil worship. you'll back me on that I'm sure.
Also, I agree that "not everything a human would do or conjure up is bad", but "God's thoughts are higher than yours" is said for a reason. "narrow road" for a reason. and a lot of junk that humans have conjured up (and you're forgetting that Satan is out there, deceiving the whole world !!!! do you think that his subtle crafty designs don't come into play here? don't dismiss the Devil and his presence as a factor in how the world is, and how people in general behave, and all the "vain customs" that they have.)
back to my friend Almost. I made the point about passover and sabbath being mentioned and you said naturally because they were expressly commanded by Jehovah. I agree with you that that's the primary reason. but it's not the only one. because the wedding in Cana in John 2 was NOT something "commanded by Jehovah" to the Israelites, yet it's incidentally mentioned. and so are other little things here and there. some banquets and whatever. but my point was that WHY was it "cultural" for those Jews NOT to celebrate their birthdays? you have to understand that their "culture" was inextricably tied in with their "religion". they were interchangeable in many ways. not a point to be overlooked. and you concede at lesst that no Apostle nor Christ, during that ministry, ever celebrated any one of their birthdays. some people won't admit that. they might say "well how do you know they didn't??"" for real. the point is that there were reasons that Moses, Jeremiah, Peter, and Jesus, and Paul didn't do that kind of thing. they were FULLY AND WHOLLY consecrated and pure unto the Lord. not perfectly every second. but they did not go out of their way consciously to do questionable and vain things, or "customs of the nations".
now as to your remark about Jeremiah 10 not referring to Christmas. the WT said that in principle Jeremiah 10 does not exactly HELP the case for Christmas trees. in other words, let's put it this way. if you were attempting to support Christmas celebrations and the use of Evergreen Christmas Trees in that, is Jeremiah 10 the first place that you'd go to try to BACK UP OR JUSTIFY your position?? lol. I think my point is made just with that question alone. it says clearly that "they decked the trees," and "works of their hands" and "vanity" and "hot air" and "learn not the way of the nations at all" and "idolatry."
with Jeremiah 10 in the Bible, why would anyone CLAIMING to be a total Bible-following (principles "aforetime" and all) pure holy double-separated double-sanctified unadulterated untainted un-worldly "Christian" be involved in that?? not to mention the host of other Verses in both "Testaments" that deal with "mixing the true with the false" and "what does Christ have to do with idols" etc? JWs don't forbid drinking wine in moderation cuz the Bible does not forbid that. even in principle it doesn't. it condemns EXCESS with wine. (hi Baptists who go beyond that.) but birthday celebrations and all its BLATANT pagan trappings and background is a different matter. it's put in a negative smelly questionable light in Scripture. though not a terrible crime like murder or stealing. so it's not quite in that level.
anyway, gotta go for now. hope this helps. and always remember "the heart is deceptive and treacherous" and "there exists a way that seems right to a man, but the ways of death are the ends of it afterward." people do what's right "in their own eyes" no matter what onerous and negative light the Scriptures put those things in. that was predicted. my point to is why chance it? when in doubt leave it out, comes into play. I know some hardened non-caring emotional types will say "oh but I'm not in doubt. I think it's ok." well, so did Korah, Dathan, and Abiram. and what was there end result? well they were electrocuted, and burned with fire. (See Numbers 15,16; Jude 11,12.)