Need for an org and need to be judged by one's works (page 2)

2112

Forgive me as I don't recall the scriptures exactly but I know you could find them.

Paul said we are saved apart from works so no one can boast, and James said we faith without work is dead. Both of them used an OT story to prove their piont. They even used the same story. It was Abraham offreing up Issac. How would this be possable if the Bible is Gods word? Simple, we as men could only see Abraham raise the knife up over Issac, but God read Abraham's heart before he even got to the foot of the mountain. By faith we are justifed by God, by works we are justified by men. Find those scriptures and read the chapters in total and you will see the differance. James is looking at things from a human perspective. I hope this helps

TheListener

Auldsoul, I totally agree with that take on James. I use the same argument and I add in (since dubs love it so much) : Matthew 12:34 -out of the heart's abundance the mouth speaks.

This is the argument I use:

I let the person know that I agree with James, if you have strong faith you're motivated to have some "works", perhaps by talking about your faith or by doing things in connection with your faith. I add that I know this is true because Jesus said in Matt. 12:34 that out of the hearts abundance the mouth speaks. If you're heart is filled with faith it will be evident. I then add teh final volley: What doesn't make sense to me is proscribing exactly what constitutes the "works" that James mentioned. The "works" would vary by individual because every individual is different and their faith would motivate them differently. The "works" of some individuals is clearly evident and out there for all to see, like a preacher, the "works" for others may be completely hidden from view, perhaps praying more or privately helping others.

M.J.

To quote a post written by Elsewhere some time ago,

They have the Faith / Works idea backwards.
The bible teaches that works are an emergent property of faith (one's faith compels one to volunteer at church), while JWs teach that faith is an emergent property if works (study more, go out in FS more, go to more meetings will produce more faith)
To put it simply, they believe that running the car will fill the tank with gas when the reality is that one must fill the tank with gas before one can start the car.

The funny thing is that JWs will accept that salvation is due to "undeserved kindness" through Christ's sacrifice...and that such kindness is NOT a "payment" in exchange for works, but it's totally a "free gift"...Yet on the other hand they say that works are a requirement for salvation. Contradictory? Yes. The way they reason through that one is that one ought to show their "gratitude" through works for God's "free gift" in order to be eligible for that "free gift"... So if works are simply an expression of your "gratitude" toward God for his "free gift", what business does anyone have dictating HOW you express it, or GAUGING how much "gratitude" you show?

A Paduan

I agree but how can explain Paul's command to not even eat with wicked men?

That's incorrect

"But rather I wrote to you not to associate with any one who bears the name of brother if he is guilty of ........not even to eat with such a one."

The wtbts consistently makes a mess out of language.

yaddayadda

The apostle Paul was specifically driving home that we can't be saved through works under the Mosaic Law per se, whereas in James, the 'works' without which faith is dead are Christian works. Big difference and not to be confused with each other.

Reluctant Buddha

Greetings karola. I am in agreement with you that no one needs an organization in their life. I must disagree with the popular notion that positive kamma is not necessary for what you refer to as "salvation." I meet many here in USA that swear, gamble, abuse their bodies with various substances, lie, cheat, steal, commit many sexual transgressions, yet they think nothing of it. They have explained to me a strange doctrine of a legal Tribunal in another dimension. In this other dimension, the God of the Christian has carried out legal proceedings as a Judge. The Satan of evil has acquired the race of man, and somehow the suffering and death of the Teacher Jesus paid the ransom which the Satan demanded, and the race of man now belongs to Jesus Christ. Somehow, this means that no one needs to become clean in thought, speech, action, intent.
One who believes in the Jesus Tribunal in the other dimension need only "believe" this Tribunal has occured, and that one has been bought back to Jesus Christ by the actions of this Tribunal, and "salvation" is assured. Positive kamma is antithetical to this Tribunal having it's desired effect by blocking the effects of this Tribunal. Those who construct such notions of events in other dimensions and use them to evade both responsibility and consequences of their thoughts, speech, actions, and intentions, are misguided.

reaper

The chapter in 1 Corinthians 5 talks about sexual sin and relates it to eating the bread and drinking the wine of the communion celebration. Paul was telling the Congregation not to eat with such a person who was partaking of the emblems whilst they were living an immoral life. He also told them to remove the person from their fellowship. Obviously some Churches will enforce this, whilst others do not. I tend to leave it up to God to do the judging.

Need for an org and need to be judged by one's works