What is faith REALLY?

by Silverleaf 47 Replies latest jw friends

JW72

FAITH gives you the oppurtunity to believe in more than just this world.
Some people NEED faith.
Chris
sennabrasil94

What is faith Realy?
I relate it to an extrapolated inferance.
Extrapolate - To infer an unknown from somethig that is known.
Infer - To guess, surmise, to conclude by reasoning from premis or evidence.
Prmise - A proposition supporting or helping to support a concluseion or argument. To state or assume as a premise.
I find it easier to explain what I want to say with simple definitions
Blind faith is something I cannot do.
Hope that help or at least was thought provokeing
SennaBras
AGuest

May you all have peace!
All of you have some pretty 'intriguing' responses as to what faith REALLY is... and Winston's understanding is closest.
May I ask you:
When Noah was told to build the ark... who else heard it?
When Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac... who else heard it?
When my Father called Samuel... who else heard it?
When Jacob wrestled with the angel, when Moses heard my Lord and saw the burning bush, when Jeremiah, Jonah, Ezekiel, Daniel, etc., were commissioned... who else heard and saw what they did?
When John was given the 'revelation'... who else heard and saw it?
And yet... ALL of these... put FAITH... in what they HEARD... and SAW.
FAITH, then, dear ones... is the ASSURED expection of the things hoped for... the EVIDENT DEMONSTRATION of realities... though not 'beheld'.
What does it mean to 'behold' something? It means to experience it SENSUALLY... with your PHYSICAL senses of sight, touch, taste, sound and smell.
FAITH, however, is 'experienced'... with your SPIRITUAL senses of sight, touch, taste, sound and smell.
The PHYSICAL realm is that which is VISIBLE; the spiritual one, is that which is INVISIBLE. Thus, you cannot experience it with PHYSICAL sight, touch, taste, sound and smell. You cannot WALK by [phyiscal] flesh... but instead... MUST walk... by spirit. You must then keep your 'eyes' NOT on the things SEEN (with the physical eyes), but the things UNSEEN (with the physical eyes).
YOU know you heard it; YOU know you saw it. Does it matter then, really that OTHERS know or hear and see it to? Does it matter that others BELIEVE that you heard and/or saw it? No... not if you have faith. If, however, you are more concerned with the 'glory' of MEN... so that you must have some way to PROVE to them what you KNOW to be true... then you will never understand... receive... or KNOW... the 'glory' of God.
We are not the only ones here, dear ones. I promise you. We cannot not HEAR that which also exists with us... because they are on a different FREQUENCY.
Proverbs 8:7
Hebrews 12:25
Matthew 17:3
John 10:27
And we can't SEE that which also exists with us... because we are in a different 'dimension', the other one which cannot be entered into by flesh... with its blood. THAT was the 'long garment' that Adam 'sold' us into slavery to! Before that, Adam to 'go in and out', just as ALL spirit creatures can... and do.
Revelation 4:1, 2
John 10:8
Genesis 2:8; 3:22-24
Genesis 28:12
Job 2:2
Funny thing, though... ANIMALS hear and see... QUITE well. Yes? Hmmmmm... and we think ourselves 'superior'. Sure, right.
Before Adam's 'sin', we had the POTENTIAL, dears ones, to be superior; but we 'failed', by means of Adam. We, can, however, BY MEANS OF CHRIST... see and hear that which THEY (the animals) see and hear. Today, THEY hear, see... and obey much more than we do. WE... call it 'instinct'. But in fact, they HEAR the voice of my Father and my Lord... and 'obey'. It is NOT 'instinct' that says 'geese fly south for the winter.' It is my Father's voice, through my Lord that says, "It's time to go, beloved ones." Those that 'hear'... and obey... go. Those that don't, usually lose their lives. Yes, even animals... in fact, even PLANTS... can be obedient... or disobedient. ALL life has the potential to obey... or disobey... for ALL life... possesses spirit.
Thus, there IS NO SUPERIORITY of the man over the beast. We were to 'honor' and care for them in the SAME way as a man was to honor and care for a woman... who was in subjection to HIM.
FAITH... dear ones... is KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW TO BE TRUE... BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEEN... AND/OR YOU HAVE HEARD... IT, and it matters not what others think of your saying so, what others TRY to tell you is 'true'.
Most cannot see... or hear... because they are 'physical' men. They RELY on what they can see, touch, taste, smell and hear... with their physical flesh... and DISMISS that which they see, touch, taste, smell and hear... with the SPIRIT. Why? Because the Adversary has set his 'agents' in place to MISLED you away from doing so, by TELLING you... that it CAN'T BE DONE.
They are liars... and from their 'father', the Devil.
And so how can one 'see' and 'hear' that which is spiritual? As my Lord was recorded to have said:
"Sacrifice and offering you did NOT delight in...
THESE EARS OF MINE... YOU OPENED UP."
Does my Father TRULY want sacrifices and offerings, dear ones? Or does He want us to LISTEN... HEAR... and OBEY? Indeed, is it not BETTER to obey than to sacrifice? But how can you obey that which you cannot hear?
You CAN hear. All you need do... is ASK. But take as to your REASON for asking: are you asking because you WANT to know what my Father's 'will' is for YOU? Because you WANT to be 'disciplined' so that you can be 'refined', so that you can have your 'nakedness' revealed by HIM... and not by 'earthling man'?
Or do you want to have your 'sensual pleasures'... stimulated?
James 4:3
Indeed, the 'things' of the [phyiscal] flesh... are of and FOR the physical flesh. And the things of the SPIRIT... are OF... and for the spirit.
I, myself, SJ, have spoken it to you, just as it has been told to me... and shown to me... by my Lord.
I hope this helps, and I again bid you all peace.
YOUR servant, and a slave of Christ,
SJ
D wiltshire

Shelby,
With all do respect I think some of your last staments are a little out there.
. Today, THEY hear, see... and obey much more than we do. WE... call it 'instinct'. But in fact, they HEAR the voice of my Father and my Lord... and 'obey'. It is NOT 'instinct' that says 'geese fly south for the winter.' It is my Father's voice, through my Lord that says, "It's time to go, beloved ones." Those that 'hear'... and obey... go. Those that don't, usually lose their lives. Yes, even animals... in fact, even PLANTS... can be obedient... or disobedient. ALL life has the potential to obey... or disobey... for ALL life... possesses spirit.
Just what did the Father say to you about the animals as quoted above could you give us a word for word quote without paraphasing?
Silverleaf

Hello SJ – Shelby? Thanks for responding.
You wrote:
>>When Noah was told to build the ark... who else heard it?
When Abraham was told to sacrifice Isaac... who else heard it?
When my Father called Samuel... who else heard it?
YOU know you heard it; YOU know you saw it. Does it matter then, really that OTHERS know or hear and see it to? Does it matter that others BELIEVE that you heard and/or saw it? No... not if you have faith.
FAITH... dear ones... is KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW TO BE TRUE... BECAUSE YOU HAVE SEEN... AND/OR YOU HAVE HEARD... IT, and it matters not what others think of your saying so, what others TRY to tell you is 'true'.
>>
I agree that faith need not be corroborated by others. It’s a personal thing, so personal in fact that I cannot understand why God would speak to a certain person or group of people and then expect them to incite faith in others to whom He had not spoken.
>>It is NOT 'instinct' that says 'geese fly south for the winter.' It is my Father's voice, through my Lord that says, "It's time to go, beloved ones." Those that 'hear'... and obey... go. Those that don't, usually lose their lives. Yes, even animals... in fact, even PLANTS... can be obedient... or disobedient. ALL life has the potential to obey... or disobey... for ALL life... possesses spirit.<<
I really don’t mean to be irreverent, but you’re saying that the reason my dog rolls in crap sometimes is because the Lord told him to? Or did he do it purposely to disobey God?
And how exactly can a plant disobey?
>>Thus, there IS NO SUPERIORITY of the man over the beast. We were to 'honor' and care for them in the SAME way as a man was to honor and care for a woman... who was in subjection to HIM.<<
Oh, you’re not saying that man is to animal as man is to woman are you? Please tell me that’s not what you’re saying because I’ll have to hurl if you are.
I do agree with the general theme of your post, though, that our faith, whatever it may be, should not have to be proven to others, only to ourselves and if we choose to have faith in something, it is just that, only a choice.
Silverleaf
Quester

Ranchette quoted from October 1,2001 issue
of the watchtower: "As used in the Bible however
"faith" basically means total trust-complete,
unshakable confidence in God and his promises."
As used by JW's "faith" means total trust--complete,
unshakable confidence in...THE ORG.
Larc, If God really did speak to us as he spoke
to Abraham, I wonder if we would just think we were
crazy.
I think God probably does speak to us, maybe not in
that sensational way, but in other ways and perhaps
we just dismiss it or discount it.
To me, faith means believing enough to take the first
step and then the next and then thru experience we
come to know and experience God.
Quester
AGuest

Hello, DWilt... and may you have peace!
Word for word... well, I had to go BACK to my Lord and ask again, and through my Lord, this is what my Father has said to ME:
"There is no difference between the spirit of man and the spirit of animals, child. None. Such that man is not superior to animals, but merely different. A different 'kind'. Indeed, I created THEM first, did I not? And when I created earthling man, there was no 'enmity' between the two. The ONLY difference between man and beast... is their flesh... with its abilities, including the ability to speak. Indeed, can I not open the mouths of such ones, just as I have opened your ears? They, too, are my 'children' and I love them. You must take care then, not to harm them without cause... for life... is life... and spirit... is spirit. Just was when your flesh returns to the dust and your spirit to me, so, too, when THEIR flesh returns to the dust, their spirit returns to me. For I have put such spirit in them. I have put my spirit into ALL life, ALL living things... such that I am their God and it is to ME that they must look for salvation. Man AND beast I have saved, child, and it is man and beast that I will yet save. While indeed, their 'value' is not as earthling man's, their value is still value to me. They are mine. I have given them the flesh and existence that I wished to give them... and they honor me. Indeed, the day will come when whatever enmity now exists between earthling man and the beasts of the earth, whether domestic animal or wild beast, winged creature or locust, sea monster or bird of the heaven, it will cease. I have concluded my covenant with THEM... just as I have concluded it with earthling man. And as I have desired it, man and beast will dwell together, just as I have desired it. Therefore, do NOT think yourself superior to even the tinest of life, for even in it I have placed my spirit. Those that come to you for food, do so willlingly, in obedience to MY will. They know, however, as do my 'sons', that I will restore them in due time. Indeed, their flesh experiences pain, and for that they cry out, but they willingly sacrifice themselves... beast and vegetation... ALL that has life in it... so that my 'sons' can live... in the flesh. Their 'reward' then, will be great. So, take care as to how you deal with my 'servants', the beasts and vegetation of the field, and do not leave off from giving thanks for the life they provide you with THEIR life. ALL life... with its blood... its SOUL... is sacred to me."
Is the 'inspired expression'... 'testable'? Let's see:
Numbers 22:22-31
Ecclesiastes 3:18-21
Psalm 36:6
Genesis 6:7, 13, 18-20
Genesis 7:21-24
Genesis 9:12, 15
Genesis 8:16, 17
That's what I heard, DWilt, and even plants have 'blood'. And just like man, both plants and beasts can be disobedient. Do you recall the fig tree that refused to produce food for the Son of God? Producing food was the very purpose of that tree's existence; yet, when called upon to do so... it did not. And so, was 'cursed'.
I have spoken it to you, in truth, just as I have heard it, DWilt. I an try to listen. I don't kill anything anymore, to the BEST of my ability. I mean, I have 'taken out' a fly or two recently, and then IMMEDIATELY felt the greatest remorse, and so begged forgiveness. I try HARD not to do things like that. But, well... the flesh, yes? And yes, I eat meat... AND vegetation. Both, at one time, had life IN them. That's why plants need water... and food... too, yes? But it is 'allowed'... for now... for the flesh that we have been 'sold' into... requires physical sustenance.
I await the day, though, when all I will need to 'live'... is to eat from the leaves of the Tree of Life... and drink from the 'river' that issues forth from his throne. I do that now, to the extent I eat and drink the 'flesh and blood' of my Lord... the 'True Vine', the 'Root'... 'SPROUT!'... THE Tree... of Life (John 14:6). I also do it to the extent that I willingly RECEIVE the spirit of my Father, holy spirit... the 'water of life'... which is 'poured out' from my Lord now.

I am, as I have admitted, DWilt, a 'sinner'. It is BECAUSE I am, that I NEED a sacrifice. It is because Adam 'sold' me, that I need a ransom. I accept from the Holy One of Israel, JAH OF ARMIES, the 'ransom' and 'sacrifice' provided for ME... by His Son, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. I accept it, in that I listen to him... when he speaks to ME... and I obey.
I hope this helps... and I bit you the UTMOST of peace, to time indefinite. I am...
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
AGuest

Dearest Quester:
I think God probably does speak to us, maybe not in
that sensational way, but in other ways and perhaps
we just dismiss it or discount it.
To me, faith means believing enough to take the first step and then the next and then thru experience we come to know and experience God.
Amen... and amen. May you have peace.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
D wiltshire

Shelby,
If Jesus died for us who are sinners to get salvation, who died for the plants and animals that as you say are sometimes sinners when the don't do what God tells them?
conflicted

I have thought long and hard on this topic.
I see a number of posts above quoting biblical scripture as a definition of faith - but isn't there a question of the authenticity of the scriptures in this context?
Example: The topic under discussion is "What is faith", but you have to have faith that the bible is truely the Word of God before you can quote it. If you are at a point (spiritually speaking) where your faith isn't total, how can you belive the bible has the answer?
a) IF you trust in the scriptures, the question of faith is merely the definition of a word - you already have faith, you just want to know what the word means.
b) IF your faith is truely in question, there really is nowhere to look in the physical world to find an answer. You can't look to the bible, because it may not be true - such is the case with any other writings from any other religion.
Faith is belief and trust in something (or someone) without physical proof. Therefore you can't look to the physical world to find it.
Jehovah's Witness was the ONLY religion I knew, and I have faith that it is false, but that is where my faith ends. I don't know IF there is a God, and IF there is, is it the God of the christians, hindus, bhudists, or any one of the housands of other religions worldwide. I don't know, and I could spend every waking moment studying every religion on Earth to find the answer, and still might never find out.
I had faith that what I was taught as a child was true - when I became an adult and questioned further (as anyone with a reasoning mind should do), I found their teachings and practices lacking - as most of us here have. On that day my "faith" was shaken to the core, not only could I not believe in the JW version of things, but anything remotely spiritual was under scrutiny, from the mundane, to the truely profound, and even the BIG question "Is there a God?" has me shrugging my shoulders.
All of this dialog does not go without a point though, and those of you who have bothered to read this far are in for a treat.
My experience of faith has given me two things,
1) I know what faith is, because I had it. Faith is believing with your entire being that God exists, that God cares, and that what He has written down for us is true. We have a purpose for being here and we will be rewarded for following the instuctions set forth by Him.
2) Faith is the base upon which all things spiritual is built. The human psyche is flexible and maleable, like clay. Knowledge molds the clay of your inner self to shape the person you are to become. Faith is the kiln that fires the clay to make a strong and firm vessel where your spiritual self will reside. And faith, like a clay pot, once broken is never the same, it can be put back together, but it will be forever cracked and weak. Some people with dilegence and perseverence may be able to rebuild their faith, others may not.
I think I am in the latter group, but fear not - I don't think I need faith to survive, I'm happier now than I have ever been, for you see, faith can be uplifting, but it can also be an unbearable yoke.

What is faith REALLY?

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