I read Randy's books and Duane's and David Reed's . . . lots of others. I maybe read a couple hundred, plus lots of the Watch Tower Publishing Corporation's books. They were all valuable to me and they all helped me. I'm grateful for the writers for all their work.
I haven't convinced any Witnesses to quit being Witnesses by showing them books, or by showing them anything else. Either a person likes being a Witness or they don't.
Every Witness is getting some need met, like social acceptance, by being a Witness. When they can't get that need met by being a Witness anymore, they move on.
There might be some people using the Witness group as a religion to worship an absent invisible deity. I personally am not aware of any. All Witnesses I know are either psychotic, neurotic, or are there for some deficit compensation, like a social anxiety disorder, and or egotist selfish satisfaction.
Need help! Have you read Randy's books?
by bythesea 31 Replies latest jw friends
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garybuss
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Van Gogh
Though I still would like to consider myself to be something of a Christian, and still firmly believe in the Creator, I'm afraid I have to concede the remainder of Garybuss's points - notwithstanding the fact that I think I have met - what I believe to be - many true and sincere Christians in the bOrg. M. James Penton's "Apocalypse Delayed" is what recently served as a fair and balanced appetizer for a third generation guilt tripper like myself - but this is a 400-page book, and you must be willing to take the time for it... and be ready for it. What finally pulled me over the edge after this, however, was "CAPTIVES OF A CONCEPT" by Don Cameron. It is short and to the point, and focuses on the main doctrinal bottleneck: The legitimacy of the FD&S - never mind the total bankruptcy of 607 BCE. But if you stick with 607 just for the sake of it, nothing significant could ever have happened in 1919. At this point the house of cards came down for me - it has served as a catalyst to make me completely change beliefs (or a concept) I held sacred all my life... (and for which some people in my immediate family were not only willing to pay with their lives, but actually did - though through utter despair and suicide) within a couple of hours. Only now have I started reading Crisis of Concience (2004). After only fifty pages there's never going to be any way back now. Was I disappointed to find confirmation of something that I remember myself as a little boy wishing to be the case: that I would rather not know this "truth" that was always looming over me? But what will this newfound freedom of conscience bring me when I will have finally finished my fading? Go to: http://www.geocities.com/captives_of_a_concept/index.html or download it immediately from: http://www.reachouttrust.org/pdf/pdfmenu.htm
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Gerard
I have not read his books but found Randy's articles very very useful.
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bigmouth
Welcome to you Van Gogh.
bythesea.I agree with garybuss,I have never yet convinced a Witness of a doctrinal error using literature of any kind.I believe you will need to reach your husbands heart before he begins to use his mind.He needs to see what it is that guts you for him to take your concerns seriously.For me it was the UN disaster that shook me from my fear of discussing it with my wife and shortly after it triggered different things for her and now she posts here too!(1 of 12).I hope your husband is treating you well.You may be going to have a tough time.Look forward to you keeping us up with how you're getting on.Pete. -
bythesea
Thank you one and all! I can't respond right now, hubby is home, but will get back to you soon!
WELCOME VAN GOGH!! Appreciated your insights!! Hope we keep hearing from you!
bythesea
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garybuss
I don't know of one Jehovah's Witness who has accepted Jesus as their savior. Not even the anointed or the Governing Body. They see their own work as their salvation. The Witness people have accepted the Society as their savior, That's the premise the religion is based on, e.g. the appointment, the authority, and the writing of the Governing Body, aka, "The Society".
All Jehovah's Witnesses must by written rule, accept all Society doctrine. All Society doctrine redirects the Witness people back to the Society for salvation and focuses on works that just happen to relate to advancing the interests (and profits) of the parent Watch Tower Publishing Corporation.
The Jehovah's Witnesses reject acceptance of Jesus as a principle point of their beliefs. That alone, by definition, makes them non-Christian. I am not a theist, but I have read religion and religious philosophy. How could Jehovah's Witnesses be "Christian"?
The Jehovah's Witnesses reject the invisible God of the Jews. They reject Jesus as the savior. How are they religious? They are a secular book printing , real estate development, and event sponsoring corporation. The Jehovah's Witness people are now both the workers and the customers.
The only way the Witnesses can say they are religious is by making medical treatment, employment, and entertainment religious items. News flash!!! Those are NOT religious things:-)
Welcome to the forum Van. -
moshe
I agree with Gary. JW's get some emotional need met by their membership. Elder by night and common carpet cleaner guy by day- take away the elder power and we have a mentally lost laborer. JW's were in many cases societal misfits until the Watchtower gave them an ego power trip. They are a type of drug addict and will go into withdrawal without a weekly boost of Watchtower/KH brain stimulants. Since my children have been out for 10 yrs I have had no need to make any JW go "cold turkey" and quit. I remember in 1973 we were building a new KH and to meet a deadline the Elders suspended our WT studies. ( we had to move out of the old building before the new hall was finished) It was the happiest 6 weeks we had- it was a real drag when the old meeting routine started up again.
peace,
Moshe
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bythesea
Gary, I do agree with you that a person sometimes will hold onto something they no longer believe in simply because it is too scarey to think about what will happen if they let go of that belief system...it does fulfill them in some way. I know my husband feels it saved him from a life of debauchary(he's from a long line of alcoholics) and probably feels its the reason we've remained married for 30+ yrs since we both come from broken homes as kids and there is little stability in the family life of his siblings. So, even if their doctrine were to be shown as not scriptural he'd still say that its the best thing going for him. I've tried to point out that people of other faiths can make the same claims, its the BIBLE thats responsible for the changes...if a person is applying it in their lives then regardless of what denomination they are their life is going to improve. He says "by their fruits you will know them"....he has no idea what all those fruits are!!! He's ignorant of the pedophile scandal, the UN, Mexico/Malawai, etc....his personal experience has always been a good one with the bros.
I am leaning to agree with you, Gary, that JW do not know Christ...this has been a complain of mine that I've voiced many times to my hubby....WHAT ABOUT JESUS??!! I've gotten so tired of all the lessons being focused around the OT and Jehovah! Jesus is given lipservice and nothing more.
So many on this forum have had such awful experiences with their bros, the Society as a whole....if he'd experienced any of that he might be easier to reason with, but he isn't the least disillusioned about them....
Bigmouth(Pete)....yes, my husband does treat me well....he's not at all abusive in any way....and its only been since my fading that he's gotten so defensive and that we've "had words"....he's always allowed me WAY more latitude to come and go, make my own decisions about things than most JW husbands....I think our previous hippie lifestyle is to my advantage there! But he's threatened now, sees the one basis for our marriage slipping away....I am constantly reassuring him that I'm here because of my love for him....not because a group of men in NY are making me stay and that I have no intention of going out and having an affair or doing some UNChristian!
Thanks to everyone who has responded....it helps so much to know I can come on here and vent some and get some feedback in this difficult journey....I so want my family to know the REAL truth! I doubt it will happen soon, but I will continue to chip away when I can!
Love to all Bythesea
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Van Gogh
Thanks for your welcome, you all. I’m tending more and more towards the position of Garybuss (Is this me speaking?); however, I’m not sure they reject the Jewish God or Jesus as savior completely. Let’s not forget that if God and Jesus do not recognize the bOrg, they might just as well see many good actions on the part of some individual members, who, in my opinion, insofar as they practice love for God and Christ, are not misled. I presume you would agree with me that your clear-cut opinions would need to be revealed to bythesea’s husband in a more “progressive way” without “running ahead.” Though we cannot consider ourselves to be members of the WTS anymore, we still need to apply their tactics for a while. Remember, once we were all there ourselves, thinking and acting the same: Patience takes precedence over content here. How could Jehovah's Witnesses be "Christian"? I was always convinced they did so by heeding Jesus’ foremost command by loving their brother in a very technical, though efficient way: By at least not having blood on their hands by killing them through partaking in any military activities… I completely agree with moshe. My dad was herded on the elder-bandwagon from the very start in the early seventies; with 1975 just around the corner he worked his butt off for a couple of years. We never saw him. An intelligent man, without a college degree, it was the only chance for him to be somebody. Paradise would obviously take care of the rest. He took care of the congregation. I can still remember the CO telling us from the platform in 1974 how Armageddon might only be a couple of months away. The CO must have flattered him into going to the neighboring cong for an additional PO term in order to support the infighting body of elders there. It must have been toward the end of 1976 when he suddenly went completely off the rails and started drinking heavily on and off for several years. We all lived in a hell, day after day. You simply knew you could never talk about this to anyone in the cong, let alone the outside world. How could anyone understand our truth? There was nothing more left in him; he simply hadn’t planned the rest of his life (or our lives for that matter), there was no place to go. You can imagine how disfellowshipping him solved the mess for some, especially the second time around. One day in November 1978 my mother couldn’t take anymore, as she jumped from my four-storey bedroom window. She died at the operating table while shouting to please not give her blood. She had come into the “truth” in Nazi-occupied Netherlands, and had for instance been arrested during the door-to-door work (A pioneer my grandfather sheltered did in fact die in a Nazi concentration camp). These hardships, and many more she suffered as a long-time pioneer in the fifties in a poor and war-ravaged country were, however, not enough to afford her with a proper funeral talk: a service was deemed improper for her by the “brothers”. My dad didn’t last long after that. Ridden with excruciating guilt, he died a horrible and lonely death. He too had paid all his dues by properly spending his “tour” in a labor camp for refusing his military service, though at the time he, and his band of brothers, were threatened with disfellowshipment by visiting Brooklyn bro’s for not opting instead for jailtime (is OK now). Dysfunctional social misfits indeed; all of us. Bythesea, what always bugged me was that we are (were) being taught how Jehovah can be anyone’s informal “friend”; like opening a prayer with “sweet Jehovah”. You can somehow just skip Christ and claim to have what Abraham was only rumored in the NT to have. But there he was said to be CALLED a friend of Jehovah. And he was the only one ever in the scriptures. The WT-study a couple of week ago went so far as to construe that Jehovah is in fact humble. Who are we to call our almighty creator humble? Why would we? Christ should be a Christian’s example of humility, and the WTS/GB would be wise to for once follow his example. Will God in fact be humble enough to come down to the level of those who claim to speak in his name by bypassing his scheme? It is interesting how they profess to reject the Trinity, yet still manage to confuse God and Christ. I can imagine your husband feeling threatened as, in your own words, he sees the one basis for your marriage slipping away. Our lives have been so completely orchestrated by the WTS, even the choice of our marriage mates. My parents’ marriage was one that was wrought in the “truth”, and an unhappy one for that matter. If he is truly valuable to you, you yourself will have to practice truly Christian principles of love, understanding, and patience. We are/were part of the bOrg because we sought solace there for our dysfunctional souls in the first place. As he, in is own mind, fled from debauchery, others, like my parents, fled into the bOrg… and debauchery as well… so others, like myself could grow up in a dysfunctional JW-environment. So you should be considerate and careful with the one that is special to you, and you should not add to the WTS-record of wrecked lives and relationships. Of course, you so want your family to know the real truth, but remember, often this search for the real truth is elusive, and dependent on whatever stage we have reached in life, as our own record has undoubtedly shown. Sometimes the real truth turns out to be a very relative thing.
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HappyDad
I wish I could get my thoughts from my brain to the keyboard, as many of you do.
Thanks for all your comments but Moshe said what has been swimming around in my head for years. If I didn't know better, I'd think he was tapped into my thought process.
JW's get some emotional need met by their membership. Elder by night and common carpet cleaner guy by day- take away the elder power and we have a mentally lost laborer. JW's were in many cases societal misfits until the Watchtower gave them an ego power trip.
For way too many years, I would silently put up with these types of mentalities.
All these misfits had to do was get the magic number each month and they were given authority over others. If they increased that magic number.....say by another 5 hours or so, and did it for about a year.......look out!
They were well on their way to an "executive" position within the cong. and even the circuit. Some of the fellow elders I worked with....who were making life and death decissions (to df or not to df) couldn't walk and chew gum at the same time.
Boy am I glad I'm no part of it anymore!
HappyDad