Desolation of Jerusalem

by Alwayshere 240 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Why change the dates 607/1914 when you can, instead, eliminate their significance altogether?

    Gedanken, I agree wholeheartedly with your post except in this one place...and it isn't really a disagreement. It's more of a clarification. There is an actual reason why the 1914 date cannot ever be moved by the WTS.

    Follow me, please, on this brief mental jaunt. When they claimed that Christ returned in 1874 and was invisibly established as King in heaven in 1878 they did NOT attach that occurence to selecting (in a specific year) a class of folks to represent him in the earth.

    Because they dd not attach it to anything like that they were free to move the date to 1914, when they finally figured out that was when the enthronement took place (in 1925). However, since they began pointing to the selection of the Society™ as God's sole Channel™ as early as 1931 and said this selection took place in 1919 (three-and-a-half years after 1914) they can no longer move 1914 without eliminating their basis for authority. Later "the Society™" morphed into the Faithful and Discreet Slave™ class (pen name for the Governing Body™)

    Then documents from the Ancient Near East were discovered in the 1950s—documents contemporary with the exiles to Babylon (notably: the Adda-Gupi Stele). When the translating and deciphering of these documents started proving WTS chronology wrong, the WTS challenged the documents for validity because they cannot move 1914.

    Their pride will be their undoing. The illicit authority that they scramble to protect is the device of their own destruction. As an organization, they are killing themselves.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • ellderwho
    ellderwho

    Scho---liar, prentending to be the heavy for the Towers without a workable kings list that establishes a reign from 607------539. Is overwhelming proof that you are without merit.

    It is amusing to watch you squirm a wiggle around the glaring fact that you are listless. And this tells all.

  • Gedanken
    Gedanken

    AuldSoul, Interesting points. I guess I should have been clearer. As you indicate, explicitly changing the 607-1914 chronology would be a real shock for many JWs - even the uber braindead ones who still remain caught in the amber of WT scholarship. So, as Ray Franz predicted, the Society took a slightly different course in that it retained the chronology but robbed it of all meaning by making the generation "elastic." It's a lot like me saying that today, January 22nd, marks the start of a period during which we will be invaded by aliens. But that's only useful if this time period has some sort of end date by which point aliens will have invaded and, if, in fact there is something special about today versus tomorrow or yesterday (e.g., we received signals from the invading fleet today rather than yesterday or tomorrow). Most JWs are now so hopelessly confused that when a Circuit Overseer quotes Fred Franz as saying "if it takes a million years, it will still come" they don't see a contradiction and, oddly, happily embrace such statements: an elder I know quoted these words to me to demonstrate how my thinking on the "generation" change was flawed, so I can't vouch directly for their authenticity but they certainly capture the JW mindset. But my feeling - and what I meant by "the WTS overestimating the intelligence" of JWs who remain - is that these sorts of chronological - and chronic - contortions are no longer necessary to keep "the brothers" in line. The JW organization now seems to be so depleted of real thinkers that all the Society has to do is stop mentioning something and "the brothers will forget." An example is the length of a creative day. Ask a longtime Witness how long it is and the answer is 7000 years, while to newer ones it's "thousands of years long." Writing to the Society elicits no direct answer to this question either. So, in discussing these issues with active JWs the first requirement is educating them as to what they actually believe. Most of the time this is enough, in and of itself, to get one labeled an apostate. Officially a creative day is still 7000 years long since this teaching has never been revoked and so it remains "current truth" (at least as far as I know, no linger being current with the most recent WT literature). Simply saying that a creative day is "thousands of years long" does not contradict it being 7000 years long. So by replacing the precise number 7000 with "thousands" everyone is happily deluded. Eventually the 7000-year-ers will die out and voila, a creative day will not have - and never did have - a precise length. I predict that the same thing will happen with the date 1914 - it will become so disconnected in practice from day to day Jw-ism that it will be no more real to JWs as is 607 BCE. The blood doctrine is another example of this self-serving and abusive treatment of JWs by the Society.

  • Gedanken
    Gedanken

    AuldSoul,

    (for some reason I couldn't edit my earlier post in which I forgot the HTML tags!)

    Interesting points. I guess I should have been clearer. As you indicate, explicitly changing the 607-1914 chronology would be a real shock for many JWs - even the uber braindead ones who still remain caught in the amber of WT scholarship. So, as Ray Franz predicted, the Society took a slightly different course in that it retained the chronology but robbed it of all meaning by making the generation "elastic." It's a lot like me saying that today, January 22nd, marks the start of a period during which we will be invaded by aliens. But that's only useful if this time period has some sort of end date by which point aliens will have invaded and, if, in fact there is something special about today versus tomorrow or yesterday (e.g., we received signals from the invading fleet today rather than yesterday or tomorrow). Most JWs are now so hopelessly confused that when a Circuit Overseer quotes Fred Franz as saying "if it takes a million years, it will still come" they don't see a contradiction and, oddly, happily embrace such statements: an elder I know quoted these words to me to demonstrate how my thinking on the "generation" change was flawed, so I can't vouch directly for their authenticity but they certainly capture the JW mindset. \

    But my feeling - and what I meant by "the WTS overestimating the intelligence" of JWs who remain - is that these sorts of chronological - and chronic - contortions are no longer necessary to keep "the brothers" in line. The JW organization now seems to be so depleted of real thinkers that all the Society has to do is stop mentioning something and "the brothers will forget." An example is the length of a creative day. Ask a longtime Witness how long it is and the answer is 7000 years, while to newer ones it's "thousands of years long." Writing to the Society elicits no direct answer to this question either. So, in discussing these issues with active JWs the first requirement is educating them as to what they actually believe. Most of the time this is enough, in and of itself, to get one labeled an apostate. Officially a creative day is still 7000 years long since this teaching has never been revoked and so it remains "current truth" (at least as far as I know, no linger being current with the most recent WT literature). Simply saying that a creative day is "thousands of years long" does not contradict it being 7000 years long. So by replacing the precise number 7000 with "thousands" everyone is happily deluded. Eventually the 7000-year-ers will die out and voila, a creative day will not have - and never did have - a precise length. I predict that the same thing will happen with the date 1914 - it will become so disconnected in practice from day to day Jw-ism that it will be no more real to JWs as is 607 BCE. The blood doctrine is another example of this self-serving and abusive treatment of JWs by the Society.

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    As usual, scholar pretendus has shot himself royally in the foot with his infantile criticism of the 17 lines of evidence in favor of standard Neo-Babylonian chronology that Carl Jonsson has presented in the 4th edition of The Gentile Times Reconsidered. I wrote to Jonsson about this minor point, among a number of much more interesting things, and received his reply, which is the basis of my comments here.

    Observe the usual pretentious and thoroughly unjustified arrogance displayed by scholar pretendus in his responses.

    First we note scholar pretendus' apparent demand for evidence in the following statement. In this mangled sentence, one should note the garbled English, where among other grammatical problems he manages to end a declarative sentence with a question mark:

    ::: By the way I am still looking for those four lines of evidence making a total of 18 lines of evidence which is supposesd to be an advancement from the third edition of the Jonsson hypothesis presented currently in the fourth edition?

    I responded in an earlier post:

    :: Jonsson provides 17 lines of evidence (cf. GTR4, p. 189). Surely you can read at a level sufficient to do this research.

    Obviously, I simply restated what Jonsson said in his book. To this, scholar pretendus said:

    : You need to go back to school and learn your arithmetic.

    We will now note how this brilliant scholar, who puts "celebrated WT scholars" on a pedestal, has managed to muck up yet another of his inane criticisms of Watchtower critics by failing to get his facts straight before unleashing his fingers on his keyboard.

    : Jonsson claims to present 18 lines of evidence but on page 189 he only refers to seventeen different evidences.

    Jonsson never claimed to present 18 lines of evidence. His statement on page 189, that "we now have seventeen different evidences", is the only direct comment he made. Scholar pretendus simply failed to read the book with understanding -- for which he stupidly took me to task.

    : However, on the opposite page, p.188, he cites Another four astronomical tablets (8-11) which are henceforth briefly discussed. The inclusive 8-11 is not three but in fact four altogether so Jonsson has made an error and so have you

    This incredibly stupid bit of "reasoning" is easily shown to be exactly that. The chapter in question here is titled, "The Absolute Chronology of the Neo-Babylonian Era". On page 185, Jonsson begins a section titled "Summary and Conclusions". He begins by stating that the previous chapter had considered seven different lines of evidence that firmly establish the Neo-Babylonian period. Then he states: "In this chapter another seven independent evidences have been presented. All of these are based on ancient Babylonian astronomical texts, . . ." Then he presents seven subsections numbered (1) through (7) titled with the various ancient text names they describe. In particular, subsection (4) is titled "The lunar eclipse tablet LBAT 1417". It begins, "LBAT 1417 records four lunar eclipses, . . ." Finally Jonsson presents an eighth subsection titled "(8-11) Another four astronomical tablets". This is presented as an addendum to the previous sections, as shown by the opening paragraph:

    The seven astronomical texts discussed above provide more than enough evidence against the Watch Tower Society's 607 B.C.E. date. And yet this is not all. Another four texts have recently been published that will be described only briefly here. Translations of three of these are published in Hunger, ADT V (2001).

    Then Jonsson writes a paragraph that is key to understanding scholar pretendus' misunderstanding of what Jonsson wrote:

    The first is LBAT 1415 which, as mentioned on page 174 above, is part of the same tablet as LBAT 1417. It records lunar eclipses . . .

    Since LBAT 1415 is part of the same tablet as LBAT 1417, they are not independent, but are logically pieces of the same line of evidence.

    Obviously, scholar pretendus missed this simple point, and then attempted to imply something like, "Oh, see how stupid Jonsson and Feuerbacher are! How can you trust them when they can't even count?"

    Well obviously, this is now turned back on his head and proves, once again, that scholar pretendus is unable to comprehend what he reads.

    The fact that Jonsson counted LBAT 1415 in with LBAT 1417 is proved by what he said in his email to me:

    One of the four astronomical tablets added on page 188, LBAT 1415, is, as I point out on there, a piece of the same tablet as LBAT 1417, discussed on pages 174-177. So it wouldn’t be correct to use LBAT 1415 as a separate independent line of evidence. LBAT 1416 is another piece of the same tablet, but it is so fragmentary that it is almost useless, so I chose not to discuss it at all. 1415, 1416, and 1417, then, are three pieces of the same tablet.

    So there, scholar pretendus: Now that you've been shown once again to have put forth a criticism of critics of the Watchtower cult, only to have it turned right back on your own head, what do you have to say for yourself?

    : but then the whole 18 lines of evidence appears to be somewhat contrived.

    In addition to what I wrote in my last post about this incredibly stupid statement, I want to comment that the entire Watchtower chronology is completely contrived. It survives, not because it has merit, but because it has inertia. What sort of inertia? The inertia of Watchtower history along with the inertia of a body of braindead religious fanatics who refuse to deal with facts. It's the same inertia that allowed the Catholic Church to continue with the official condemnation of Galileo until a few years ago.

    Furthermore, virtually all of the scriptural discussions put forth by scholar pretendus' idol Rolf Furuli in his book Persian Chronology are demonstrably contrived. Furuli has to invent new forms of Hebrew grammar in order to make his ridiculous claims -- claims that no real Hebrew scholar would go along with. That's why Furuli is unable to get any scholarly endorsements for his silly theories. Theories that have one and only one purpose -- to uphold the fanatical religious belief that the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses has and has always had divine direction.

    AlanF

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    Your recent attempt in explaining or covering over your mistake and that of Jonssons is laughable. Why do not you simply admit that both of you have made an error and publish a correction in the next edition of the Jonsson hypothesis. It is rather amusing when apostates do not know and understand their own special theories and pleadings. Your attempted explanation is utter nonsense as the following facts demonstrate:

    1. The fact of the matter is that on page 189 in GTR4 it states that there are now 17 different evidences.

    2. The fact of the matter is that on page 188 in GTR 4 a bold heading showing 8-11 Another four astronomical tablets is presented followed by the opening sentence that seven astronomical texts have just been discussed which included the LABAT 1417,1419,1420,1421. Then Jonsson says that a further four texts will be described briefly and these are listed in order from one to four.

    So we have a list of already discussed seven independent evidences all based on Babylonian astronomical texts which precede a further four recently published astronomical texts that are similar to the proceeding seven texts. This is further shown by the parenthesis 8-11 which means not three but four texts inclusively speaking. Even though LBAT 1415 is part of a previously listed LBAT 1417 this new published text LBAT 1415 is presented a new and independent line of evidence beginning a first of a series of four astronomical tablets.

    In short, Jonsson proposes in his hypothesis that there are:

    7 different lines of evidence shown in Chapter 3.

    7 independent evidences all based on Babylonian astronomical texts in Chapter 4.

    4 further recently published astronomical texts in Summary, Chapter 4.

    Therefore 7+7+4=18 NOT 17 as proposed.

    scholar JW

  • Gedanken
    Gedanken







    Truly it can be said that lesser mortals such ourselves can only stand on the shoulders of such Giants as yourself!

    You are clearly on to something major. The reticence of AlanF and, indeed C. O. Johnsson himself to admit to this egregious error is certainly because they recognize - and only too well - that this is the first stitch to unravel in what is clearly a sordid fabric of frabication, indeed, a veritable pablum of prevarication and prestidigitation. It is rather rare to read posts as insightful as yours which not only penetrate to the core but do so with modesty and a light touch. With laser like precision you have gone straight to the very root of the whole 607/1914 chronology, indeed to the very heart of the matter - first and foremost you have cleaved the very bone from the marrow and, secondly, the fatty tissues have been rent from the not so fatty tissues. I have to admit that, until now, I also had been misled by the chronological scratchings of Mr Johnsson and his ilk. I owe you a debt of deep gratitude, for now, in the glorious light of your post, I see Watchtower chronlogy for what it actually is! To think that the entire eschatological exegesis of the past 100 years (and more) can be summarized in the precise mathematical statement that 17 + 1 = 18. Sometimes the simplest solution is the best. If only Russell had been blessed with your clarity of thought, intellect and sincerity of motive in his numerological studies of Giza's varied dimensions, then how different might the past 122 years have been! Why we might even now be residing not merely in the spiritual paradise but in the actual Day of His Rest. How true it is that the light gets ever brighter!

    Clearly, you deserve elevation - at least to the pantheon of celebrated Watchtower scholars - and, I have heard mutterings amongst prominent Assyriologists that you may have actually transcended them all. I am certain that your natural modesty will incline you to shrink-back from even the contemplation of scaling such heights but scale them you must. For it is clear that your discovery will resonate not only with the professional Assyriologist; its widespread implications for eschatology, reflexology, sexology, scatology and even gerontology - to name but a few soon-to-be-impacted fields - mean that your fame will be known throught the earth is guaranteed.

    However, Oh Soon-To-Be-Lauded Scholar, there is one necessary and somewhat tedious first step which you must take in your journey to the rarefied heights of Academic Near Eastern Studies and it is this: pray do not delay even a second in submitting your meaty meditations, your fatty findings, indeed your seminal maculations, together with your prehensile perpotations to a learned journal. I'd recommend Nature but even a modest rag such as the Journal of Near Eastern Studies - a link to which I humbly provide for your convenience here: http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/JNES/home.html - would cement your claim to fame and fortune. Do not worry about florid presentation, elaborate diagrammation or intricate indentation! Why, your findings are so astounding that even a doorkeeper - yea even a janitor or toilet attendant - in the house of the University of Chicago Department of Near Eastern Studies will recognize your outpourings for what they are and, I am sure, deal with them accordingly.

  • Kaput
    Kaput

    Round file for scholar's "outpourings"

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    #define SARCASM ON

    What an excellent rebuttal there, scholar pretendus!

    #define SARCASM OFF

    How anyone can be so stupid as to claim, in the face of an author's direct statement to the contrary, that two textual fragments that are clearly dependent because they're part of the same tablet are actually different lines of evidence, is beyond the ken of all normally reasoning people. The only way to make such a claim is to have no evidence whatsoever in one's favor, so that an arrogantly stupid person can resort only to flatulent, contentless bluster.

    Readers are on to you, scholar pretendus, even though you're not.

    Now, you've had well over a week to compose your "two hour" response to my 15 hours of research. Obviously, you have no idea how to proceed, and likely have enlisted the aid of someone such as your god, good old Rolfie. C all at the top of your voice, for he is a god; for he must be concerned with a matter, and he has excrement and has to go to the privy. Or maybe he is asleep and ought to wake up!

    I won't hold my breath.

    AlanF

  • scholar
    scholar

    Alan F

    Perhaps now you will have the intellectual honesty to admit to the fact that Jonsson and yourself have made a blunder in asserting that the Jonsson hypothesis now consists of not 17 lines of different evidence but of 18 lines of different evidence.

    Your previous post on your nonsense regarding 538, Jeremiah 25:12 and the misuse of Josephus will be replied to when I am ready and not before and it will be of my own making and not that of any other person.

    scholar JW

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