Protector of pedophiles

by Norm 29 Replies latest jw friends

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  waiting

  Hey UR,

  Now that I'm not a jw - I can actually go publicly into a Book Store and read in the Bible History sections - anything I want. My husband and I just sit on the floor with our coffee and read and read. Eventually we try to buy something so that we don't look like total geeks. The freedom to read and talk about *stuff* is incredible. We had 2 other people (strangers no less) sitting with us last week at Books A Million .....anti Bible study on the floor. Great fun.

  To my point.......I ran across two interesting books by Jewish historians who were saying (I think) that:

  1. Moses et al, couldn't have happened during the time periods put forth in the Bible because some of the kings, cities, provinces didn't even exist when Bible says they did. And that many (millions)people logistically couldn't have wandered around in the desert for 40 years and not leave a trace, no broken bowls, no trace, nada. All kinds of "couldn't have happened that way...." stuff logically, historically.

  2. Another writer speculated that the men who wrote the Bible were telling tales of things those types of people at that time would know about and identify with. Rather like the Black Spiritual songs of the slaves - many were about their lifestyles, dreams, and escape plans - not about God all the time.

  For instance, Dinah. He speculated that there was no Dinah, but the writer was warning people what would happen if they made friendships with foreign people. Horrendous consequences. Stories with a message - like the fairytales.

  However, if one takes the Bible literally - as Norm is questioning us - then we're caught if we think about it. Because Moses was God's close friend. Friends tend to mirror friends. A righteous man. The only person to actually see God's glory and survive. And he wasn't even a virgin, guess he survived because he was a he, eh? (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

  Why should these people without a law code act any differently than their neighbors? Perhaps God did speak with Abraham & Moses.....but what about the thousands/millions of illiterates of the tribes? What would make them act any better than the average for that time or for that type of situation - conquest and slavery?

  waiting
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  Farkel

  Utopian Reformist,

  : , the account does NOT mention anything about reserving the young girls for pedophilia or for sexual purposes. It is an allegation.

  Uh, why did it specifically mention that ONLY the girls who had not known the act of lying with a man could be spared?

  Do virgins clean the house and cook better than non-virgins? It is obvious why they wanted virgins and it was all commanded by a man who was so "great" that "there has never yet risen up a prophet in Israel, whom Jehovah knew face to face." (Or at least that's what he said about HIMSELF AFTER HE WAS DEAD AND BURIED. Deut 34.10)

  If you would ask me, I would say he was lower than whaleshit.

  Farkel
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  bluesapphire

  I think the Bible is full of stories like our "Crying wolf" stories and our "The sky is falling" stories. We all know there really is no historical value to these stories, but they get the message across.
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  SixofNine

  but they get the message across.

  Only too true. And how sad for our planet.
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  TheHighPriest

  Great stuff Norm,

  The thing no one has commented on yet is the fact that some of these girls ended up as human sacrifice on the altar.
  Just read the account for yourselves it's right there.

  THP disgusted
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  wasasister

  Just one thing no one has mentioned yet. Farkel said:
  

  Uh, why did it specifically mention that ONLY the girls who had not known the act of lying with a man could be spared?

  Do virgins clean the house and cook better than non-virgins?

  Could it be that they only took virgins because there would be NO possibility of them later giving birth to a Midianite child? I do think household servants would be common, and likely young females would be under the charge of the soldier's wife, if he had one (and it would be unusual for an adult male in that society to be unmarried.)

  While I acknowledge that if the head of household wanted to use a slave for sexual purposes, they would be free to do so, I would agree with UR that this does not seem to be the main purpose for sparing the virgin females.
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  GinnyTosken

  My thoughts echo Wasasister's. The main impetus behind this battle was that Midianite women had seduced Israelite men into adultery and worship of Baal. According to the law, both parties to adultery should be killed. The Israelite men were killed by a plague; the Midianite women had been left unpunished.

  It isn't very fair, but by killing all non-virgins, the Israelites could be sure that all of the adultresses were duly punished.

  Even the feelings of blood daughters were not considered in regard to rape, as is shown by the story of Lot. Females were simply property, loot, booty. What happened to those virgin slave girls after they were captured is anybody's guess.

  I do note in the account that a percentage of this loot is considered God's. I do not know if it's true that this meant human sacrifice, as The High Priest says. I don't recall any women performing temple services, especially non-Israelite women, so that option doesn't seem likely. Would they be slaves to the Levites? I just don't know.

  It is a sickening story. If the names were changed and Muslims were reported as doing these things, most people would be horrified at the gross inhumanity of such primitive tribal justice. Because it is in the Bible and because God supposedly wanted this, many people tend to excuse it.

  Ginny
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  waiting

  Howdy again,

  Back to the books I was reading (and not buying).....another reason given for saving the virgin girls/women was that they most likely would be free of venereal diseases. Thus making sex with them safer.

  In the Bible, the man was free to have sex with whomever he wanted in his household. Wives, 2nd wives, 3rd wives, any and all their maidservants, concubines, etc. I would assume that he would try to keep peace in his family just to make life easier. He was also free to have sex with the prostitutes he paid for also. And if his brother died, he was bound to have sex with the brother's wife so that she would have a child - and then he was bound to financially support that child.

  Btw, a strong argument has been put forth that the ancient men also had sex with a lot of men too - not because they were traditional homosexuals - but to show their power over strangers coming to their town, etc. - such as the happening in Sodom. All the men - from old man to young boy - wanted to have sex with the strangers (angels unknown), not because they thought they were so cool, but because they wanted to humiliate the strangers.

  As yet another book brought out - it was paramount to that nation of tribes of shepherds that they bring forth as many kids as they could, particularily men. Thus, another reason for virgin girls to be saved - and that would be the reason of sons and more sons....and that means sex with the virgin girls/women.

  It would seem to be that the pre-nation of Israel had several passtimes, shepherding, conquoring, and sex. Not much different than any other group of people.

  History does not repeat itself; historians merely repeat each other. Philip Guedalla

  waiting
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  SixofNine

  I'll admit to enjoying being free to think the worst about that destructive book. Having said that, in regards Wasa's comment: "While I acknowledge that if the head of household wanted to use a slave for sexual purposes, they would be free to do so, I would agree with UR that this does not seem to be the main purpose for sparing the virgin females.", I have to think the motivation was primarily sexual/predatory/religious (all together and all bad). The other reasons you mentioned are perhaps valid, but do not sound very compelling to me, comparitively.

  I'm sure they didn't see a thing wrong with it. For that matter, I'm sure the women of Isreal saw nothing wrong with it as well.

  Ain't social evolution grand?
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  GinnyTosken

  I've been curious about this story and have been nosing around online and in my books. I skipped back to where the trouble began in Numbers 25. It's a bit confusing because verse one says that the people began to have sexual relations with the people of Moab, not Midian. Were the Midianites nomads who were living in Moab while the Israelites were there? In Numbers 31, it is definitely the Midianites who were attacked.

  It's all so strange. Midian was Abraham's son with his last wife, Keturah. There were blood ties between the Midianites and the Israelites. When Moses fled from Pharoah, he found sanctuary with Jethro, the priest of Midian. Moses married Zipporah, Jethro's daughter. It's lucky for Moses that Jethro didn't plan a honeymoon surprise like the one Phinehas gave Zimri and Cozbi.

  Cozbi intrigues me. Numbers 25:15 says, "The name of the Midianite woman who was killed was Cozbi daughter of Zur, who was the head of a clan, an ancestral house in Midian." Michael Lackner has painted a picture of Cozbi. I've seen it on this site before, but did not know the story behind it. If you're offended by female nudity, don't look:

  http://www.homestead.com/artistgallery/Cozbi.html

  He explains what inspired the painting:

  Cozbi as Victim

  Certainly from the Jewish perspective what Cozbi did was wrong. She was attempting to turn the Israelites from the path of G-d. However, from Cozbi's perspective how could she do otherwise? She honored the wishes of her father. She respected the advice of her prophet Bilam. She admired the beauty of her own religious tradition. She sought to share her form of worship with the Jewish People. One can almost imagine her, a flirtatious smile on her face, urging the princes of Israel: "Join us in our devotion! Make love, not war!"

  And her reward? A spear cast through her stomach!

  This story troubles me. I feel sorry for Cozbi. She was a victim. A victim of her time. A victim of her culture. A victim of men.

  So many who read these Biblical passages seem completely untroubled by these events. They refuse to confront the harsh reality of Cozbi's suffering. Such a horrible thing. If this truly be G-d's will, so be it. That is for each of us to judge. At a minimum we must honestly confront the complete truth in all of its aspects. That is all I seek. Truth. Emes. This is what inspired this painting.

  After the Exodus, Jethro went out to meet Moses in the desert. Exodus 18:7 says, "Moses went out to meet his father-in-law; he bowed down and kissed him; each asked after the other's welfare, and they went into the tent." Later Jethro gave Moses good advice about delegating responsibility. He also offered a sacrifice and shared a sacred meal with Moses, Aaron, and the elders of Israel. Had Moses adopted the religion of Jethro or vice versa?

  In Numbers 31, these family ties and shared religious rites are forgotten. The Midianites are a corrupting influence which must be destroyed. In a way, what happened to those little Midianite girls was worse than the Holocaust. Not only did those girls see their fathers, brothers, mothers, and sisters killed, but they survived to be slaves to the killers. If these slave girls indeed were used sexually during their captivity, can you imagine the horror of sex with the killer of your family? At least the Jews did not have to be slaves to Hitler and his followers after the war was over.

  Ginny