AlmostAtheist: did someone hi-jack your brain again? you really shouldn't leave it hooked up to the internet without a firewall. :)
ackack
To Wt apologists - this is all that mattered to me... please address
by AK - Jeff 35 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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AuldSoul
Dave,
My response would be (and was, because those were the identical lines I got):
"Why would Jesus choose this organization if he came and inspected right now? Much of its doctrine contradicts the Bible, the Governing Body is feeding instead of the Faithful and Discreet Slave, the elders are judging just as secretively and as severely as the Pharisees...why would he pick it today, much less in 1919!"
AuldSoul
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AK - Jeff
Almost - I enjoyed your 'devil advocate' points. They are pretty well in harmony with the arguments I would have made as a witness. I find it interesting that the apologists have not shown up with those debates.
TD - Posters like you, with the ability to see through the false premise and arguments is probably why. I enjoyed your rebuttal of Dave's parody.
Still waiting for the apologists. Maybe they are bsuy getting last minute shopping done before the big C ?
Jeff
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AlmostAtheist
TD, My Brother,
I'm glad you were able to benefit from my greater spiritual knowledge and experience. But remember always, it is Jehovah working through me. I am but a humble slave, a mere messenger. I bring you Jehovah's words; thank him.
Assertion #1
Jehovah/Jesus saw that the organization of worshippers in 1919 known as Bible Students were sincerely trying to serve him acceptably.
A JW can claim that the Bible Students were "sincere" all he or she wants. Whether Jehovah/Jesus agree with that claim and even if they do, whether they valued this sincerity over and above whatever any other group may have had is another matter ---one that no human can objectively know short of a Divine revelation
The dictionary defines sincere this way: Honest, marked by genuineness. It comes from the latin 'sincerus', which means 'pure, genuine'. It is not a simple assertion to describe the Bible Students as sincere, it is an established fact. Just look at how the preaching work in that day exploded after 1919. Statistics bear out that Jehovah's blessing was on them. Examine also their willingness time and again to change their ways to come into greater and fuller harmony with God's revealed will.
While it is true that no one can claim to know the mind of god, we DO know that Jesus said to look for a "faithful and discreet slave" that would be feeding his people in the time of the end. This group received its appointment in 1919, a mere 5 years after 1914, the end of the gentile times. A coincidence?
Assertion #2
He credited 'holiness' to this group and accepted them as his own.
Another claim to know the mind of God. Taken together these two assertions amount to an a priori assumption of the correctness of that which was in question in the first place. --In other words, a circular argument.
His accreditation of holiness to this group is apparent in the fact that they held wrong teachings at the time, but he blessed their activity anyway. By examining their future, he could see that only they would be loyally carrying his banner through the coming decades. It is a clear indication of his feelings toward this organization. Do you not recall in the Bible where [what's his name] said, "If it isn't from God, it will fail on its own. But if it is from God, we couldn't stop it anyway?" Have Jehovah's Witnesses been stopped, despite many attempts by their enemies? Hardly! They have grown year after year, and continue to grow.
Assertion #3
The history of the organization has shown that it took this appointment seriously. Truly, as Jesus said, by their fruits you will know them.
The history of the organization could just as easily be used to make an opposing case. The JW organization has done some good things, but they've done a fair number of bad things as well. Their stubborness in the face of overwhelming evidence that the transfusion medicine taboo is in error is a good example of the latter. Ignoring the bad when the JW faith is compared to others amounts to a double standard --and more circularity in the argument.
God's perfect organization is made up of imperfect men. He has never required perfection from the humans he has used. Look at Moses. Look at David. Was David the king of Israel, or wasn't he? He was, despite his imperfections. You're letting the imperfections of men cloud you from seeing the perfection of the underlying organization.
Non-sequitors 1, 2 & 3
Who else is performing the preaching work in a united way on a worldwide scale?
What other organization has upheld the Bible's moral code to the scripturally-sanctioned point of shunning unrepentant wrong doers?
Who else is remaining separate from the world's politics and warfare?
Even if we ignore the fact that the JW's are not completely unique here, the positions the JW organization has adopted in the years following 1919 is neither here nor there as far as the original question is concerned.
These positions are very relevant. Jehovah was able to see that the organization in 1919 would later adopt these scriptural positions, while other organization would not. It's true that others also bear some of these marks, but not all of them. Only Jehovah's Witnesses bear the true ear mark of a slave of God by carrying all of these doctrines and teachings.
Assertion #4
Truly, it is clear that the organization today known as Jehovah's Witnesses has acted and continues to act as Jehovah's representatives on earth.
This is simply begging the question since this is exactly what is in contention in the first place. The only thing that could make such an appointment clear is objective evidence, yet the only thing a JW can bring to the table is subjective evidence.
I was merely summarizing the material covered thus far and tying it all up with a conclusion. I'm sorry if this was taken as "proof". The proof of this alleged assertion was in the abundant material provided before it.
I hope this clears it all up. If you have any other questions that I haven't fully addressed, let me know.
That was cathartic --- Thank you AA.
(Ugh! What's the opposite of "cathartic"? That's what this is doing to me!)
Dave
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AK - Jeff
Dave - I fear, my dear friend, that you have spent far too much time with our apologist friend, Sweetscholar.
I believe that if we open our Bibles to 1 Corrinthians 15:33 we will see the outcome of this sort of association......
Jeff
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M.J.
Brother Dave,
Let's look at your assertion of God's knowledge of the Slave organization's future course of action in light of scripture. Jehovah had chosen Saul to be king over his then-organization Israel, yet Saul turned out to be faithless and disobedient. God was even said to "regret" his decision, according to 1 Sam 15:11. Does this indicate God's foreknowledge of Saul's eventual choices as king? Did it indicate that God knew Saul's future sincerity? The answer to both questions is no. This passage must indicate how man's actions are not predestined by God.
Brother, please read what the Slave has provided on the subject, as in the Watchtower of 4/15/88, p. 6-7,
T he Scriptures say that "God put Abraham to the test" by commanding him to sacrifice his son Isaac as a burnt offering. When Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac, God stopped him and said: "Now I do know that you are God-fearing in that you have not withheld your son, your only one, from me." (Genesis 22:1-12) Would God have made that statement if he knew in advance that Abraham would obey this command? Would it have been an honest test?
Furthermore, the ancient prophets report that God repeatedly spoke of himself as ‘feeling regret’ over something he had done or was thinking of doing. For example, God said that he "regretted [from the Hebrew na·cham´] that he had made Saul king over Israel." (1 Samuel 15:11, 35; compare Jeremiah 18:7-10; Jonah 3:10.) Because God is perfect, these verses cannot mean that God made a mistake in selecting Saul to be Israel’s first king. Rather, they must indicate that God felt sorry that Saul turned out to be faithless and disobedient. God’s using such an expression in referring to himself would be nonsensical if he had foreknown Saul’s actions.
The same term appears in the most ancient of the Scriptures where, in referring to the days of Noah, it says: "Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart. So Jehovah said: ‘I am going to wipe men whom I have created off the surface of the ground . . . because I do regret that I have made them.’" (Genesis 6:6, 7) Here again, this indicates that man’s actions are not predestined by God. God felt regret, grief, and even hurt, not because his own actions were mistaken, but because man’s wickedness became rife. The Creator regretted that it had become necessary to destroy all mankind except Noah and his family. God assures us: ‘I take no delight in the death of the wicked.’—Ezekiel 33:11; compare Deuteronomy 32:4, 5.
From this passage it is abundantly clear that God could not have granted a special status to anyone on the basis of their future course of action. [hey it's fun to use their own arguments against them ]
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TD
Hey Dave, you're having way too much fun. The only thing missing from this exchange is alchohol in mass quantities.
If a JW said:
The dictionary defines sincere this way: Honest, marked by genuineness. It comes from the latin 'sincerus', which means 'pure, genuine'. It is not a simple assertion to describe the Bible Students as sincere, it is an established fact. Just look at how the preaching work in that day exploded after 1919. Statistics bear out that Jehovah's blessing was on them. Examine also their willingness time and again to change their ways to come into greater and fuller harmony with God's revealed will.
I would say: Like "honesty," "integrity" and any other virtue, real sincerity is a condition of the heart. The most we can do from a human perspective is to infer a sincerity based upon subsequent action. But again, our own perceptions don't speak to the question of whether the sincerity was real and whether God percieved it as such. But let's assume for the moment that the sincerity was real. Why would we not afford other religious figures the same generosity? Because unlike the JW's, what they were preaching was wrong? Remember that the message preached by the JW's from 1919 until 1925 was that the ancient worthies would be resurrected and the Golden Age would arrive in 1925.
His accreditation of holiness to this group is apparent in the fact that they held wrong teachings at the time, but he blessed their activity anyway. By examining their future, he could see that only they would be loyally carrying his banner through the coming decades. It is a clear indication of his feelings toward this organization. Do you not recall in the Bible where [what's his name] said, "If it isn't from God, it will fail on its own. But if it is from God, we couldn't stop it anyway?" Have Jehovah's Witnesses been stopped, despite many attempts by their enemies? Hardly! They have grown year after year, and continue to grow.
The numerical success of the Watchtower organization is not unique and doesn't set them apart. Other religious organizations similarly started off small, were persecuted and ridiculed, but beat the odds grew into large, successful organizations. The Mormons are one example, with a much more dramatic history than the JW's.
God's perfect organization is made up of imperfect men. He has never required perfection from the humans he has used. Look at Moses. Look at David. Was David the king of Israel, or wasn't he? He was, despite his imperfections. You're letting the imperfections of men cloud you from seeing the perfection of the underlying organization.
I'd fetch you another beer for this one, Dave. I'd open and pour it for ya too. This is a typical, JW repudiation of the earlier argument. If, as was the case with Moses and David, the strength to the claim of appointment is independent of human failings, than the need for outside, objective confirmation doesn't decrease, it increases.
In the Moses story for example, he was given credentials in the form of miracles, proving beyond a shadow of a doubt before the older men of Israel and Pharoah that his appointment was genuine despite any failings he did or didn't have. Similarly David was allegedly appointed by a true inspired prophet, who took his marching orders directly from God.
The organization of JW's want's to compare themselves to Biblical figures, but they lack the credentials to back up this type of claim.
These positions are very relevant. Jehovah was able to see that the organization in 1919 would later adopt these scriptural positions, while other organization would not. It's true that others also bear some of these marks, but not all of them. Only Jehovah's Witnesses bear the true ear mark of a slave of God by carrying all of these doctrines and teachings.
This is a curious sort of circularity. This elevatates what JW's teach today to the standard that God allegedly used to judge the Bible Students in 1919. because Jehovah's Witnesses today is what they would eventually become.
Let me see if I have this straight. We know that what Jehovah's Witnesses teach is true because their leadership is God's representative. Conversely, we know that their leadership was appointed as God's representative because what they teach today is true. Hokay Dokay.
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ackack
Whatmore, after 1919, JW's were not terribly numerically successful. Sure, lots of converts leading up to 1925, but after that, blammo, 80% left.
After all, post-1919, the big preaching campaign went out for 1925... Advertize Advertize Advertize..
ackack
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AlmostAtheist
Well played everyone! I really wish somebody that cared (JW or apologist) would have come in here, but at least we got some of it hashed out. TD, very nice point about David being annointed by a prophet. Beautiful work!
This was a very useful thread for me, thank you all so much. And thanks Jeff for starting it!
We know that what Jehovah's Witnesses teach is true because their leadership is God's representative. Conversely, we know that their leadership was appointed as God's representative because what they teach today is true.
Yes! You got it! You are now ready for baptism. Please grab your towel and modest bathing attire, drop your brain in that bin over there with the others, and follow the attendants...
Dave
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LDH
clueless knotheads
LOL @ Cheezy.
Lisa
Fresno Class