Bible verses or theological questions which "breaks" JW

by Shazard 21 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  tetrapod.sapien

  but wanted to get from ex-JW what are the themes JW just unable to answer and not trained to speak about!

  yes, genesis chpt. 1. ... evolution vs. creation. they're morons about it, and you can get them every time. SO easy!

  ts
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  Shazard

  Thanks. I am "expert" in JW doctrines from "otuside" that's why was hoping that tehre is something inside I can use to reach. But I guess you all are right... thinkg what I can do is just to be myself and to be old brother who loves his brother. I guess the cure will be love! The rest is God's Holy Spirit whos responsibility is to guide and lead... so I believe Jesus when he promises that the HGhost will teach. --- I was protected coz I didn't let myself into doubt about Jesus Divinity, it mostly saved me from falling into doubts about everything I believed. My brother never was active believer, and I just didn't notcied that he is under influence (we don't live togeather), so when I realised he is in cult, first thing I had to do is to fix my own relationship with God... and it was too late for me (as I was untrained christian). --- So there is no silver bullet :( Hoped there is! Thanks... I was reading your site long time ago allready, and I am so glad that if not my brother then somebodies brothers and sisters still get out of that organization. Actually you all are my hope (and prove) that God can reach my brother. --- Anyway than you in name of Jesus Christ to all of you for what you are doing.
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  Confession

  Having been a devout JW elder and only "waking up" a little over a year ago, I do understand how slippery the JW mind can be. That said, for me, there were "flashpoints" that had been building up for years. I was pretty good at dismissing them. It was the WTS teaching on confession that led me to where I am today.

  Also, as I began to think for myself, I would reflect on a few brothers and sisters who I thought might have decided to leave--not because they couldn't live up to JW standards--but because they truly thought it wasn't the truth. Yes, I "thought" that might be the case...but I just didn't know for sure... Had I known for sure, I might have phoned them.

  Presently, I think the best way for me to reach my JW friends and family may be to...

  1) Let them know that I have completed a thorough, UNBIASED examination of the WTS teaching and concluded that the organization is NOT what it claims to be. Inform them that I will be happy to discuss the results with them whenever they care to call me in the future.

  2) Knowing that likely none of them will respond, I sit back and wait. Maybe I wait months--but more likely years--for their minds to go through what mine did.

  3) Then, perhaps, when they find themselves in a similar mental state as mine, they will stumble onto something that makes them question as did I--and, knowing that I would be a safe person to call, they may eventually do so.

  4) That's when I send them my treatise, "Why the Watchtower Society is Not What it Purports to Be."

  I so wish I'd had someone I knew and respected to call when I was going through this. I'd like to give doubting JWs this softer landing by being there for them.
• 

  garybuss

  Confession, I have been writing this since I confirmed it works fine by people who did it and had success. Personally, I have closure to every Witness relationship in my life. For the Jehovah's Witnesses who have snubbed me or shunned me or anybody important to me, I shun them. They are finished business.
  
  For Christian (or other) would be apologists who want to expose the Witnesses to information that will cause them to leave the Watch Tower Society, I say this: First, challenge your own beliefs, by having someone who doesn't believe (or respect) your sacred beliefs expose you to the same type of information you'd like to expose the Witnesses to. Notice how you feel personally about the person who challenged your beliefs. That's roughly how the Witness will feel about you. If you want to piss somebody off, directly insulting their religion is usually an excellent way to do it.
  
  People I know who had relatives join the Witness group and followed my suggestions, kept rapport and had good results.
  My suggestions were.
  1. Keep rapport.
  2. Support the relative.
  3. Attend their baptism if asked.
  4. Accompany them to an assembly if asked.
  5. Never talk about religion or Witnessism.
  6. Accept all literature offered.
  7. Commit to a minimum of 3 years. 5 is more normal.
  8. Research motives and start substituting.
  9. Reward the Witness for associating with you.
  10. Keep rapport NO MATTER WHAT!
  
  For the Witnesses who want to be nice to me, I have a few simple rules.
  1. I never talk about religion or Witnessism.
  2. I give them the same respect I give a stranger.
  3. I accept them as they are.
  
  For exiting Witnesses, I try to be a resource for them and provide any information asked for.
  
  I'm still learning:-)
  
  
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  AlmostAtheist

  Gary, that list is excellent! I will keep that in mind.

  8. Research motives and start substituting.

  What do you mean by this one? I don't understand.

  Thanks!

  Dave
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  garybuss

  Hi Dave, The item: "8. Research motives and start substituting.", means a person who converts to Witnessism leaves a trail of clues as to why they want to be a Witness. Sometimes the trail is like a Mack truck plowing though a flower garden and other times it's pretty well hidden from the casual observer.
  
  One personal experience example was of the young, raised Catholic, stay at home mother of three pre school age children with an over controlling husband. She was mostly ignored by her mother and her sisters until they found out she had been studying with the Witnesses and was planning to be baptized as a Witness. THEN they started paying attention to her. I had to think there was actually no reason she wouldn't have wanted to be a Witness.
  
  She was ignored by her family, Witnesses paid attention to her, LOTS of attention. She was lonely, Witnesses were company for her. She had no friends, they supplied friends. Her husband was domineering, they got her away from him. The kids were stressing her and she needed some breaks from their constant care, Witnesses cared for the children so she could attend group sponsored meetings and go in service. All of a sudden, she had her sister's attention, her mother's attention, she had company, friends, child care help, had control OF her husband, and the promise of immortality. She went from the back seat being lonely and alone to not only driving the bus, but owing the company.
  
  Her sister contacted me and wanted the silver bullet. I threw a proverbial bucket of cold water on her. But she came back and brought her mother, and another sister. They were all of the Catholic faith. They wrote down every single thing I told them and they started to work their plan. They established rapport. They QUIT looking opposed to the sister's Witness connections. I showed them the warnings in the Knowledge book. They understood. They stayed completely away from religion and Witness dogma and Bible discussions. They went to her baptism. They attended circuit assemblies with her. (After baptism we know the loads of attention and home study and the wind up friends start to disappear.) Then AFTER the sister was baptized the mother and her sisters started to replace the attention the Witnesses gave her before the Witnesses started to withdraw.
  
  The husband got on board and he loosened way up. Soon the mother and sisters were doing all the Witnesses had been doing AND MORE. They did it all without even bringing up religion or Witnessism. They did it with work, with love, and with friendship. It took three years but the Witness sister disassociated. It was a happy ending.
  
  They all learned their lesson. If you ignore your friend or your relative, the recruiters won't.
  
  I don't see people who charge in on a Witness and try to prove the Witness wrong have any successes at all. If anything they make better Witnesses out of them and they might keep them in the group an extra 10 years.
• 

  fahrvegnugen

  
  Well Gary, here is a subject which we can completely agree on.

  I remember the thoughts that went through my mind when a brother who had begun to have serious doubts started speaking to me about them. At the time I was a book study conductor and he was assigned to my group. As soon as I realized where he was leading the conversation, it was as if alarm bells were going off in my head ***APOSTASY ALERT--APOSTASY ALERT***. He brought it up again a couple of times while we were out in field service together and all I could think of was, 'Gee, poor brother so-and-so needs some help, he's really going off the deep end.'

  Having this experience in mind, when I left I didn't bother trying to convince my family or acquaintances that their faith was misguided. I knew it would be a complete waste of time and only alienate them. When they're ready--they'll see it. In the meantime, I think the best thing that ex-JWs can do is to get on with their lives and not obsess over the past. Seeing members who left the group leading happy productive lives is the best "witness" you can give to your JW friends and relatives.
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  TopHat

  All good advice from everyone:

  I remember when I was a dub and we were all coming out of the KH...There were at least 4 apostates all sitting on a little hill just outside the door to the right. They had this funny smile on their face and I said hello how are you but they didn't answer.... I swear they looked just like little demons to me.
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  jgnat

  Excellent, Gary. All the steps you outlined are dead-on. I'll repeat the last three for emphasis. I'm in year five.

  7. Commit to a minimum of 3 years. 5 is more normal.
  
  8. Research motives and start substituting.
  
  9. Reward the Witness for associating with you.

  The reason the "silver bullet" won't work is that we're not working with robots, but living, breathing human beings. People typically are not loyal out of logical reasons, but emotional reasons. Gary's reasoning reminds me of the story of the young psychiatrist who was going to empty the mental hospitals by reasoning with them. The staff gave him his first patient, a man who thought he was Jesus Christ. The doctor started out,

  Doctor: So you believe you are Jesus Christ?

  Patient: Why yes I am, my son. I forgive you for your arrogance.

  Doctor: Is it true that as God you have powers of healing beyond the mortal man?

  Patient: That is true young man. Are you looking for healing?

  Doctor: Well no, heh heh. I'm fine. If you cut your finger would you bleed?

  Patient: Of course not.

  (Doctor pricks Jesus Christ in the finger. Patient stares at his finger in amazement)

  Patient: Well what do you know? God does bleed.

  Find out why your brother is so emotionally bonded to the Witnesses, and you will find the key to getting your brother out. If it is for social reasons, why don't you and your brother join a bowling league, something like that?
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  jgnat

  More thoughts, typically JW's are not "broken" out, unless the society itself delivers a rude shock and betrays their undercurrent cruelty. This does happen, so keep an eye out.

  JW's are typically coaxed out of the society, since cognitive dissonance yanks them back in if you try and rudely yank them out.

  http://www.angelfire.com/ab6/jgnat/UBM/index.blog?entry_id=1108955

  The typical mistake that Christians make is to tackle critical theological differences head-on. Most of these arguments have to do with the nature of God, something we cannot objectively check to see who is right. So the debaters end up going in circles in interpretations and translations. JW's are primed to respond to the arguments around the Trinity and Hellfire for instance, so don't even go there.

  Much more effective, for me, is to tackle side-issues around Christian behavior and love. Also, instead of declaring what I believe, I ask questions. Questions require the responder to think before they answer. Here's some possible topics.

  1. How long is a repentant person to be avoided? The JW minimum is six months. Read the parable of the Prodigal Son. Luke 15:11-32

  2. If your neighbour is hungry, is it better to give him literature on eternal life, or to give him bread? Matthew 25:34-36. The parable of the good Samaritan Luke 10:24-26