The 7 times leading up to 1914...

by FaithfulDoubter 10 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  FaithfulDoubter

  Ok, I've talked to a few Witnesses about this. Here's what I don't get: according to the Witnesses the period of time from 607 BCE to 1914 CE was the 'gentile times'. A period when true worship was not really available. This seems inconsitant to me because:

  1. The Jewish people DID return to pure worship, and DID rebuild the temple, and DID do God's Will. Of course, they also went overboard, so much so that Jesus had to counsel the religious leaders, and they regected him. Still for a time, true worship was definately there.

  2. The time of Jesus ministry around 33 CE, and what happened to the time of the death of the last apostle, is unarguably a period of true worship as well. God's organization existed at that time.

  According to the JW's, Jehovah has always dealt with an organization. This says that he even had an organization in those times of darkness between 607 BCE and 1914 CE. But, in the next breath, they'll tell you that the church teachings prior to 1914 (Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodox), are all steeped in apostasy. Well, during the gentile times, who was God's orgnaziation? I doubt you'll ever get a JW admit that the Catholic church was, despite it's definate power and so on and so forth.

  So, could someone clear things up according to a JW perspective?

  1. How do JW's reconcile true worship occuring between 607 BCE and 1914 CE with it being the Gentile Times?

  2. Has Jehovah REALLY always dealt with organizations?

  3. If affirmative to #2, what organization would one seeking true worship turn to between 200CE - 1914CE?

  4. Why was that organization, if existant not used at 1914 to reestablish true worship, instead of a wholy new entity being formed?
• 

  PoppyR

  Hi, I dont have time to do this justice, and there are people on the board who explain things so much better than I can, but I do think it's been missed, so BTTT
• 

  FreeWilly

  Hi Faithfuldoubter.

  Faithfuldoubter: "How do JW's reconcile true worship occuring between 607 BCE and 1914 CE with it being the Gentile Times? "

  I'm not sure if you've been given the correct understanding of the Gentile Times. It has more to do with there being a King on Earth rather than "True worship". The Society teaches that this is the time period that there has been no king representing Jehovah on Earth. According the the Watchtower Society's calculations, 607 BCE is when the Israelites lost their king. 1914 CE is when they say Jesus was enthoned. The period in between is called "the Gentile Times". They calculate the 7 Time periods mentioned in Nebuchadnezzars Dream (Daniel 4) to be 2520 years and plug that in with a date they say Israel lost their king. Thats how they come up with 1914.

  However, these dates do not hold up to scutiny. You will not find any historical reference to Jerusalem being overthrown in 607 BCE. There is multiple lines of Archeological evidence proving that this actually happened in 586 BCE . For more background into this issue and the 607 BCE date I recommend this ARTICLE.

  The Watchtower Society still clings to these dates because they are part of a pivotal calculation they have used to predict Armageddon. To relinquish them would be too embarrassing and undermine their claim of Divine communication.

  I recommend you actually read the account in the Bible at Daniel 4. There Nebuchadnezzar has a Dream that disturbs him. However, Daniel tells us what this dream actually means (Daniel 4:18). Notice that the fulfillment of this dream has to do with Nebuchadnezar himself. There's no mention of a hidden, second meaning is there? Notice too that Jesus and his Apostles never mention a double meaning or hidden teaching regarding this account.

  Faithfuldoubter: "Has Jehovah REALLY always dealt with organizations? "

  No. In fact for most of the Bible's history there is no "Earthly organization".

  From Adam to Moses we find no organization in the Bible. (2500 years)

  After Moses the Israelites were divided into 12 autonomous tribes that each presided over their own lands.

  After Jesus we find no organization sanctioned on Earth. ( 2000years) Instead Jesus refers to a heavenly, spiritual organization. (see John 14:6, 1 Cor 11:3 and 1 Tim 2:5)

  Faithfuldoubter: "If affirmative to #2, what organization would one seeking true worship turn to between 200CE - 1914CE?"

  JW's will always have trouble answering this question. First we know their founder did not develop his beliefs from an existing organization. We also know there were never any Christian goups that share the same beliefs JW's hold today. JW's teach that there was always an organization that handed down teachings since the time of the Apostles, but when questioned on it they never come up with any examples. --Odd huh?

  Faithfuldoubter: "Why was that organization, if existant not used at 1914 to reestablish true worship, instead of a wholy new entity being formed?"

  It never existed. As you question indicates, you recognize this teaching is just a facade. JW's insist on this teaching because they now teach that belonging to an organization, specifically their organization is necessary to avoid being killed at Armageddon. It's a fear tactic. Initially the Watchtower Society did not teach organizational affiliation was vital. It was many years later due to control minded leaders within the organization that the current insistance on membership became a steadfast rule.

  Amazingly, their founder, Charles Taze Russell preached adamantly against organizational membership. Here's just one of many examples:

  The Watchtower 9/15/1895 ---- "Beware of "organization." It is wholly unnecessary The Bible rules will be the only rules you will need. Do not seek to bind others consciences, and do not permit others to bind yours. Believe and obey so far as you can understand God's Word today, and so continue growing in grace and knowledge and love day by day."

  For more examples click HERE

  I hope that answers your questions.

  -FW
• 

  Hellrider

  The same things struck my mind too, especially your first point. The Temple was rebuild sometime between 537 and 517 BC. Worship was restored. No big deal, nothing different from all the other times the jews "strayed" from the one true God. There are a lot of more inconsistencies than the ones you mention here. If you read thru both Daniel, Jeremiah and Revelation, there are a lot of other numbers mentioned in the same context as the "7 times", but they have done nothing to try to make these other numbers fit. Also, the "day-for-a-year"-rule (which isn`t really a rule) is never mentioned in these books, and there is nothing to indicate that it is supposed to be applied. It is only mentioned twice in the entire Bible, once in Ezekiel and somewhere in the Torah, and both times it is specified that it is to be applied (in those contexts). Oh, and then there`s the fact that the Temple wasn`t destroyed in 607, but 587...

  The whole 607 - 1914-doctrine is so full of shit it`s ridicolous.
• 

  DannyBloem

  1. How do JW's reconcile true worship occuring between 607 BCE and 1914 CE with it being the Gentile Times?

  2. Has Jehovah REALLY always dealt with organizations?

  3. If affirmative to #2, what organization would one seeking true worship turn to between 200CE - 1914CE?

  4. Why was that organization, if existant not used at 1914 to reestablish true worship, instead of a wholy new entity being formed?

  Okay, the witness answers:
  1) It is all about the king. At that time there was no King in Isreal. Jezus in 1914 was king again, not before 1914. That is also why the rebuilding of the temple was not important in this 7 times because zerubabel was not a king.

  2) No, that is why it is being gentile times. No organisation (maybe with the exception of the christian congregation :)

  3) see 2)

  4) see 2)
• 

  Hellrider

  2. Has Jehovah REALLY always dealt with organizations?

  The JW-answer for 2: Who cares, they`re all dead and they`ll be ressurected anyhow...
• 

  FaithfulDoubter

  Ok, still trying to understand here. Did not Jehovah himself not like the idea of a King of Israel, and wasn't the whole King concept done to simply placate them? And further, before there was a King, there was true worship. Why would a King be required to maintain true worship from 607 BCE - 1914 CE?
  
  If you say the Gentile times referred to a reigning King, then ok. But that doesn't mean that true worship could not have happened, as it did. When I ask the organization question to a Witness, they always respond with 'God didn't have an organization during the gentile times', but then when you ask about true worship and the obvious organization of the early christian congregation, I get told it's all about kingship. ArrrggghhhH! Which is it people? Where would the biblical evidence for the Great Apostasy be found? The Jews obviously maintained true worship, if oppresive, until Jesus time. They did not go worship false God's again.
  
  The next thing that bothers me about the whole 7x in Daniel being applied to Isreal, is that the PURPOSE of the 7x passing over was to humiliate the king, and bring him back in line with Jehovah's purpose. Why would Jehovah want to humiliate his own Kings? Where they not already serving his purpose? Further, Babylon did not cease to exist during the time the King was being humiliated...
  
  So in summary questions:
  1. Which is it: Jehovah's organization or a kingship that wouldn't exist from 607 BCE - 1914 CE?
  2. If organization how does one explain that an organization did exist? If kingship, then wouldn't God's organization still exist anyway as evidenced by the time from 607 BCE - 33 CE?
  3. What is the basis for the Great Apostasy?
• 

  DannyBloem

  I think the JW's could not explain it any better. Your questions remain open and are not allowed to be asked.

  As you well know, the whole thing does not make any sense, isn't that the answer you are looking for....
• 

  Hellrider

  ArrrggghhhH! Which is it people? Where would the biblical evidence for the Great Apostasy be found? The Jews obviously maintained true worship, if oppresive, until Jesus time.

  LoL. Neither us nor the JWs could answer these questions, because the ideas and doctrines that are the basis for these questions, are not coherent. Yes, of course they maintained true worship. The Temple was in tip-top shape from around 517 BC. I think their point might be that although there was true worship, Judah and Jerusalem was still in a state of under-siege ever since the Babylonians invaded. After Babylon, other powers took over, and Judah never regained its status as a sovereign Kingdom. So I guess their answer would be that the jews were never 1) free and 2) in worship of the one true God, since 607 BC. Just answering your question the way a JW would. But you`re right, they maintained true worship. The problem in the JW-religion, is that God allowed them to return from Babylon and have their land back (although under a continued state of siege by foreign powers) after the 70 years of "exile, desolation and servitude".
• 

  FaithfulDoubter

  Actually, I was trying to describe JW doctrine to a curious friend, and he kept asking these questions, which made me feel really frustrated for not having asked before. I thought that while JW doctrine might be wrong, it was at least internally consistant, but now I'm starting to doubt even that. It's embarrasing talking to this friend, as I sortof wonder at times, "Did I really believe all this stuff?" and I realize that I did. It's all very confusing. I was hoping that I could give him some good answers, but I guess not.