for some time last night i studyed the scriptures concering the 70 years talked about in the bible.i was up untill 5 am.i looked at the scripture jeremiah were it says concering these nations they will have to serve babylon 70 years now at first glance it seems to say that its not only refering to the jews in exile it seems its talking about babylon given 70 years to rule over the nations.but it if we look at verse 17 it names the nations its talking about read for your selfs
who the 70 years applied to and the diffrence it makes on what we beleave
by PMJ 19 Replies latest watchtower bible
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peacefulpete
I'm sure there will be many responses. For what its worth "70" years was a motif, that is a recurring idiom or symbolic description of a time of punishment. It occurs elsewhere in the OT as a punishment for Tyre and ironically Babylonian texts use the same 70 year motif as punishment upon Babylon by Marduke . In Jeremiah it is used similarly. It also lists a bunch of nations that the author imagined babylon would conquer to never rise again. There are some here that understand the 70 to refer to a prophecy of Babylon's dominance. To arrive at this we must pick a starting point and ending point of this dominanace. This is where the arbitrariness comes in. If a person is convinced that the writer accurately predicted the length of dominance of babylon then they can choose dates that fit that preconception. Ultimately the rest of the prediction about the nations being forever destroyed by Babylon failed to happen as expected by the author. This then spawned theories that the prophecy has yet to be fullfilled. The WT itself has spun the words in 2 ways, both as referring to the dominance of babylon and as the length of exile of Judah's royalty. It is this inconsistancyt that has caught the attention of many here.
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PMJ
thanks peacfulpete.so realy then it all lies in what the scriptures say if the 70 years are talking about the captivity of the jews.then p&d are wrong because they only give around 50 years for it.so its left up to the reader to deacide what its saying i guess intresting
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Hellrider
PMJ, no it doesn`t. Which verse 17 are you? Chapter 17, verse 17?
25:17 So I took the cup from the Lord’s hand. I made all the nations to whom he sent me drink the wine of his wrath. 25:18 I made Jerusalem and the cities of Judah, its kings and its officials drink it. I did it so Judah would become a ruin. I did it so Judah, its kings, and its officials would become an object of horror and of hissing scorn, an example used in curses
...and then there`s a list of nations, among these nations is Judah. Judah is listed as just one of the nations that has to pay servitude TO the King of Babylon. No big mystery. If you read otherwise, try reading another Bible than the NWT.
27.17 says: 27:17 Do not listen to them. Be subject to the king of Babylon. Then you will continue to live
TO Babylon! Get it.
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TD
PMJ,
One of the bad things about being affliated with the JW's is that contradicting the JW parent organization, even in the name of defending it, is a luxury that one simply doesn't have.
The JW parent organization has certainly applied this prophecy to more than just the one nation of Judah. I don't believe they have ever used verse 17 to limit the scope of verse 11 because that scope has already been set by verse 9: (Don't hesitate to correct me on this; I may be wrong)
...h ere I am sending and I will take all the families of the north," is the utterance of Jehovah, "even [sending] to Neb·u·chad·rez´zar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite. (NWT)
Here are two quick examples from their literature. The March 1, 1994 issue of The Watchtower on page 19 said:
"How extensive will this destruction be? In Jeremiah’s time, the devastation of Judah and neighbor nations lasted through 70 years, which Psalm 90:10 describes as a typical lifetime. Jehovah’s execution of judgment today will be complete, everlasting"
The September 15, 1979 issue of The Watchtower on pages 22 and 23 had a bit more to say:
"The world situation today resembles that in which more than 20 nations found themselves during the final years of Jeremiah. The part of the earth then affected was the land bridge between Africa, Asia and Europe. Today in that area we find the oil-producing nations of the Middle East. This is still a "hot spot" like in Jeremiah’s time.""Punishment through this king of Babylon also extended to the neighboring countries that maliciously exploited Jehovah’s people out of contempt for Him."
Notice how this same magazine attempts to address the same problem you are working on:
The Persian conqueror of Babylon, Cyrus the Great, did not restore the kingdom of the family of David to Jerusalem. It is true that he conquered Gentile Babylon in 539 B.C.E., or about two years before the "seventy years" of desolation of the land of Judah ran out. He proclaimed himself "king of Babylon" and at first did not alter the policy of the Babylonian dynasty of King Nebuchadnezzar. Thus the nations subjugated by Nebuchadnezzar continued to serve "the king of Babylon" 70 years.
So with respect, I believe you are barking up the wrong tree here. -
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skyman
At one time I was obsessed with this and did all the internet searches and Society index searches. The seventy years did not happen for any of the other country’s and the bible definitely said they would by devastated seventy years as well. Since it did not happen that is the seventy years for any of the other nations, why would we think an exception for Israel occured and it was the only nation, that does not make sense. Read 25: 21 all the other nations were included in the seventy year prophecy. Plus read Isaiah and all the other scriptures ex: Lion laying down with the lamb, no more death…. None of this happened and no where in the bible does it say this is for some other time at the end right after the War of Armagedon, Bull Sheet the person reading the prophecy back then did not go OH WELL that for some future date thousands of year in the future NO they thought it would happen then .
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truth about the last days
Hi all. I also have been into this subject as my mum asked me to look into it. These are my findings. According to all historiens, Nebuchadnezzar ruled from 605bce. Jer 25:1 states that this was the first year of rulership of his as the king of Babelon. Jer 32:1+2 states that this scripture was written in the "eighteenth year" of his rule.The scripture also states that Jerusalem was under siege. 605bce minus 18yrs = 587bce. The temple was destroyed in 587bce. 587bce minus 70yrs is 517bce. According to records, the SECOND TEMPLE was built from 538bce to 515bce. As to when the temple was first used before its FINAL compleation I do not know. But the dates 517bce and 515bce are pretty close as to the end of the 70 years. HISTORY.....After the destruction, records showed even though the jews and Isrealites fled when the temple was destroyed, a few Isrealites were allowed to stay in Judah as they were succomed to the Babelonion ritules of the time. When the Medes and Persions defeated the Babelonions in 538bce, two years later, Ezra was allowed to take back the Jews living in Babylon by Cyrus the Mede. When they finally arrived, they found the few Isrealites that stayed and the Samaritions. When the remaining Isrealites arrived after, they found the Jews and Samaritions argueing over the land.( and records show that there were other smaller religious groups which had similar teachings.) With all this argueing going on, nothing was been done about rebuilding the second temple. This is probebly why it took such a long time to build. It is also intresting to note that in Jer 25:11, it clearly states that DURING the 70yrs, they were to "serve the KING of Babylon". We know that Nebuchadnezzer was king at the time, also there were his successers after as kings of the Babylon empire. Then it was Cyrus the Mede who took the city of Babylon from the Babylonions, so HE ruled as king of Babylon. So, in all, the seventy years was when the first temple was destroyed to the second one that was built for its usage for worship. 587bce to 517bce. And during this time that they had no temple to worship in, they were to "serve" all the kings of Babylon for 70yrs. So, the temple was destroyed in 587bce- not 607bce. Keith.
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peacefulpete
PMJ, as I promised you got responses. But I do think you misunderstood my comment. I do agree that the author intended the symbolic 70 years to be of Babylon's dominance over the nations he lists. The 70 was not however literal. The other details about the nations never rising again was wrong and Egypt never fell to Babylon. here's recent thread that discussed this volitile subject:Looking for secular proof for 609 BC...
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Hellrider
helrider daniel 9v2 jehovah had occured to jeremiah the prothet for fullfilling the devistations or jerusalam namely 70 years.so its saying devistations of jerusalam was 70 years.hellrider do you get it?
God, I was so into all of this crap for a while, then I got sick of it, cause I had gone thru every conceivable scenario in my head, and none of them fitted with the WTS-explanation. I`d hate to have to go thru all of this information again. All I can tell you is that you`re wrong. Someone explain this to PMJ, please...
Well, to sum it all up: Whether or not the 70 years refer to a period for Babylon OR a period for Judah (the first is correct, though), the WTS-explanation doesn`t work, either way. The attacks on Judah and Jerusalem began in 609 BC, while Nebuchadnezzar was still heir to the throne, but the Temple was destroyed in late 587 or early 586 BC. This was Nebuchadnezzars 18th year as ruler and King of Babylon. The The exiles returned in 537 BC, correct? So if you can`t 70 years backwards from 537, you get to 607, but that just doesn`t work, because this wasn`t Nebuchadnezzars 18th year. And if you were to "insert" 20 years for another of the rulers in this period, which is what the WTS implies (which one, it doesn`t matter - it gets all wrong either way) - then the Biblical accounts would end up all wrong, as the chronology would be interrupted. Anyway, Nebuchadnezzar is the main figure in the Biblical accounts, it is his dream, his...everything. And Jeremiah 25:12: "But when the seventy years are fulfilled, I will punish the king of Babylon and his nation, the land of the Babylonians, for their guilt," declares the LORD, "and will make it desolate forever.
The 70 years are FOR Babylon, nor Judah. God had elevated the King of Babylon to be his faithful servant!
However, I`m so tired of this issue. Someone else can explain it better than me.