A Call To Deal With Apostates

by AlanF 57 Replies latest jw friends

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  proplog2

  Alan:

  If it is a mere "possibility" that Jehovah's Witnesses could act in the way you describe, then I wonder as I did before, if you don't perceive yourself in high-school trying to get some kind of extra credit. Why go to all the trouble of suggesting one of an infinite number of possibilities?

  The thrust of your piece was obviously to persuade (or affirm) the idea that it is more than mere possibility. In addition your vigorous follow-ups show that you take the situation as more than a "mere" possibility. As soon as you move away from "possibility" you are entering the area of probability. So please state the percentage of "probability" you feel the "facts" you've presented justifies. 1% 5% 10% ?
• 

  hillary_step

  Prolog,

  Without intensifying the affray, and respectfully, you do seem to be missing the spirit of the point Alan and others are trying to make.

  Under the arrangement instituted by God in the Pentateuch ‘institutional violence’ was part of Gods Law to his people. Those who broke those Laws of God given to the Israelites and did not manage to hi-tail it across the borders in good time were captured, tried and ‘institutionally’ stoned to death. Under a Christian arrangement these Laws, that sought to keep national control and unity in Israel were superseded by Christian Law.

  Alan presented a ‘what if’ scenario that developed the possibility of the WTS superseding Christian Law, which by your won admission that have been guilty of before, and applied that possibility to the re-adaption of those Pentatuechal laws in a modernized format. If you think this impossible, I believe that you truly underestimate how successful the WTS has been in ‘unifying’ the thinking of its adherents.

  As an example of these possibilities, it might serve the point of argument to examine the policy that Scientologists have adopted toward its oponents, sinister and dangerous as they are. Controlled thinking is controlled thinking whether achieved by Biblical or Hubbardal means!

  Best regards -- HS
• 

  proplog2

  Hillary:

  Those who have read my posts here and on other forums know that I am an atheist. I don't believe in a supreme being. So my motive is not to be a JW apologist. I am repulsed by these side issues that are way off the wall. Cultology is a way to beat up on religions that aren't main stream. I didn't deny the possibility of JW's becoming a dangerous group. All things are possible - even the emergence of intelligent life from slime and Venus Fly Traps from Butter-Cups. I just don't think their history of self-sacrifice makes them serious candidates for the alarmists.

  In fact I think the hysteria around many of the attacks against the JW's are rooted in simple hatred and vengeance. I view the organizations and institutions humans have formed as being of greater value than their sky-scrapers, temples, and sports arenas. You must be careful when you try to tear down organizations. It is far better to fix them.
• 

  hillary_step

  Propolog,

  Thank you for your note in which you state

  In fact I think the hysteria around many of the attacks against the JW's are rooted in simple hatred and vengeance. I view the organizations and institutions humans have formed as being of greater value than their sky-scrapers, temples, and sports arenas. You must be careful when you try to tear down organizations. It is far better to fix them.

  As you will also realise if you read some on my posts, I share some of your concerns and see the practicality of your conclusion. I actually think that the above quote would make an interesting thread discussion of its own, but might raise a little too much steam!

  However getting back to the point at issue, I think the scenario that Alan paints, which was written as a possibility has merit, and I have as yet, seen no argument in this thread that has established the impossibility of such a scenario developing.

  Nice to meet you by the way - HS
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  teejay

  Jehovah through his "faithful and discreet slave" now states to us, "Let us seek out apostates in our territory and deal scripturally with them ." That becomes our organization instructions and has the same binding force on us that his statement to the Logos had when he said, "Let us make man in our image." It is our duty to accept this instruction and obey it.

  Maybe I missed it, but wouldn't such a fanciful suggestion from the GB require dubs to break Caesar's law?
• 

  AMOS

  When we resigned we received death threats.
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  JW83

  If anynoe out there thinks that Germans killed Jews because they were afraid of being killed themselves, please see 'Hitler's Willing Executioners' by Daniel Jonah Goldberg.

  I have experienced shunning by witnesses and I have also shunned as a witness. I know that this ideology and these people are ruthless.

  Jayne
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  philo

  Wasn't that a rather shallow note from you, Teejay, surely you recognise that the WTBTS has broken "Caesar's laws" before, and considers God's laws (as defined by their own authority) to be above Caesar's. They only have to say "we mus obey God as ruler rather than men".

  You want examples? They won't involve murder, but once you teach a higher law than Caesar's, dub law, murder becomes a matter of degree.

  philo
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  blondie

  By some, do you mean me? Of course, JW83, Germans are not a monolithic group and there were many reasons Germans did not resist the Nazi plan, some mentioned in that book. Remember Milgram's experiment, any ethnic group, racial group, gender, etc., can be conditioned to do unspeakable things unless they prepare themselves ahead for the mindtraps. Some Germans did fight back, I am thinking of the White Rose group in Munich. Some didn't think things would get as bad as they did, and when they realized that they were going to be the next group to be sent to the camps, it was too late. Fear motivates people in ways that are hard for some to understand unless they have lived under it day by day with no seeming chance of escape or change. Some just give in, others resist to the point of death rather than be enslaved to fear. "Give me liberty or give me death," one person said. Living in fear is a living death.
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  JW83

  Hi Blondie,

  Milgram's experiment is a great example. Those people were not afraid, they just perceived a lack of choice and acted with unquestioning blind obedience. White Rose is notable because it was an exception to the rule - practically the only group of resistance within Germany. My point is that devotion to an ideology or even just an apathetic obedience or lack of resistance is dangerous. I shunned ex-witnesses not because of fear but because I thought that I was in the right and I was, according to the ideology I put my faith in. Those witnesses who are not dogmatic believers are just as bad, as they lack the will to resist. I have a friend who has shunned me even though we used to discuss 'apostate' theories before I left. I know that she doesn't think it is the truth and I am pretty sure she is not 'afraid' of leaving or dying etc. It is basically just that she might lose all her family and heaps of friends who are witnesses - a lack of motivation to resist. Dogmatic believers are ruthless, apathetic followers are just as bad. That is why I think Nazi Germany is such a great example of how an ideology can affect actions, the same if you look at the Soviet Union or the Catholic Church etc etc. I just don't think that fear plays that large a part, unless it is fear of standing up and being counted!

  Jayne