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by Shazard 20 Replies latest jw experiences

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    yaddayadda,

    Everyone believes in something higher than ourselves, even Seattleniceguy. Atheism is the highest form of bravado.

    If this is your comment, that I don't think you have taken the time to understand my position. Is your lack of belief in unicorns a form of bravado? Or do you simply not believe because you find the idea slightly preposterous? Bravado has nothing to do with it. I would certainly like to believe in benevolent beings more powerful than us, but honesty prevents me from arbitrarily believing in things that suit my fancy, without actually having facts to support the belief.

    Shazard,

    atheism is just believing that something does not exist... it is faith too... just a bit strange faith, formulated actually in negative form, but faith... as can't be prooved too.

    You're confusing lack of belief in something that someone else has postulated, with positive belief in something. If you tell me you have an invisible friend and I say I don't believe you, is that faith? If so, then it means that you have an infinite number of "strange faiths." After all, you probably don't believe in leprauchans, unicorns, gnomes, etc, etc. What do you base your negative faith on? You can't prove that gnomes don't exist! Another manifestation of yaddayadda's "bravado," perhaps.

    The point is that non-theism does not need to be proved, just as non-gnomism does not need to be proved. I'm not the one claiming that gnomes exist. If you claim they exist, you're the one with faith. Not believing in gnomes is the default position, since no one has ever produced evidence that they exist. Similarly, not believing in God is the default position. If you claim you have an invisible friend in the sky, it's up to you to prove it, and my lack of belief simply means you haven't proven it to me.

    Once you can understand how your lack of belief in gnomes is the same as my lack of belief in gods, you will understand my position.

    SNG

  • yaddayadda
    yaddayadda

    LOL Seattle, your analogy between believing in unicorns and a rational choice to belief that there must be a Creator is not a valid comparison. More like a rather silly straw-man. There are solid, scientific, rational reasons for believing that there is a God. Many of the greatest scientific minds on earth today profess to believe in a creator, and they base that decision on sound reasoning, not wishful thinking or religious bias. They may not believe that entity or mind is exactly as portrayed in the bible, but they accept that there must logically be some creative mind force much higher than ourselves. I'm sure you are obviously aware of those arguments, assuming you come from a JW/Christian background. If you aren't then I'd be happy to provide you with some information. On the other hand there is absolutely no valid scientific reason to believe in unicorns, which is a product of fictional imagination.

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    yaddayadda,

    I disagree with you on two counts. First, there is no scientific evidence of God. The God-hypothesis is totally untestable, as is the unicorn hypothesis. As you probably know, scientifically testable hypotheses must be falsifiable. There is no conceivable experiment that could falsify the hypothesis. Therefore, it cannot be said to be scientific in any sense. This is similar to the unicorn hypothesis, because if I believe in unicorns, there is no conceivable evidence that could disprove them to me. If you pointed out that no unicorns had ever been found, I could simply respond that you hadn't looked hard enough. If you pointed out that no one had ever even seen their footprints or skeletons, I could simply say that they are very good at hiding, etc, etc. That's the great thing about a non-falsifiable hypothesis. It is impossible to disprove. But it certainly is not scientific.

    Secondly, with regard to your assertion that many great scientific minds profess belief in God, I would refer you to this study of the positions held by scientists in the National Academy of Sciences:
    http://www.nature.com/cgi-taf/DynaPage.taf?file=/nature/journal/v394/n6691/full/394313b0_fs.html&content_filetype=pdf

    As you can see, the vast majority (93%) of professional scientists are either agnostic or non-theistic. Only 7% profess belief in a personal creator.

    Of course, the issue is not settled by majority rule. But if you try to support your belief by invoking the views of scientists, you should be aware that the vast majority of recognized scientists do not, in fact, agree with you.

    SNG

  • Shazard
    Shazard

    Siettleniceguy (sorry don't know yet how to quote - make those yellow boxes) you sayed "Not believing in gnomes is the default position..." So that is what I mean... taking some default position based upon what... why this this position is good or better then positive position? This position is based actually on your own limitations (of knowledge, experience, you name it) to get the evidence or to understand evidence. If you say that there is no x-rays coz you never observed them (and it would be very right claim say 2 centuries ago) does this makes your position clever. Actually if people would believe in x-rays and tried to find them then x-rays would be discovered much earlier. See default "I don't see so it does not exist" position actually is putting breaks into your wheels. And here comes difference between God and unicorns... no matter how desperatly people seeked unicorns I don't hear about entire nations believing in them. Opposite is with God. So... may be your default state is just reflection of your ability to see and hear rather then reflection of reality?

  • yaddayadda
    yaddayadda

    Scientists alive today who accept the biblical account of creation?

    Note: Individuals on this list must possess a doctorate in a science-related field.

    Is there evidence of discrimination against creation scientists?

    Which scientists of the past believed in a Creator?

    Note: These scientists are sorted by birth year.

    Early
  • Galileo Galilei (1564–1642) (WOH) Physics, Astronomy (see also The Galileo ‘twist’ and The Galileo affair: history or heroic hagiography?
  • Johann Kepler (1571–1630) (WOH) Scientific astronomy
  • Athanasius Kircher (1601–1680) Inventor
  • John Wilkins (1614–1672)
  • Walter Charleton (1619–1707) President of the Royal College of Physicians
  • Blaise Pascal (biography page) and article from Creation magazine (1623–1662) Hydrostatics; Barometer
  • Sir William Petty (1623 –1687) Statistics; Scientific economics
  • Robert Boyle (1627–1691) (WOH) Chemistry; Gas dynamics
  • John Ray (1627–1705) Natural history
  • Isaac Barrow (1630–1677) Professor of Mathematics
  • Nicolas Steno (1631–1686) Stratigraphy
  • Thomas Burnet (1635–1715) Geology
  • Increase Mather (1639–1723) Astronomy
  • Nehemiah Grew (1641–1712) Medical Doctor, Botany
  • The Age of Newton
    • Isaac Newton (1642–1727) (WOH) Dynamics; Calculus; Gravitation law; Reflecting telescope; Spectrum of light (wrote more about the Bible than science, and emphatically affirmed a Creator. Some have accused him of Arianism, but it’s likely he held to a heterodox form of the Trinity—See Pfizenmaier, T.C., Was Isaac Newton an Arian? Journal of the History of Ideas 68(1):57–80, 1997)
    • Gottfried Wilhelm Leibnitz (1646–1716) Mathematician
    • John Flamsteed (1646–1719) Greenwich Observatory Founder; Astronomy
    • William Derham (1657–1735) Ecology
    • Cotton Mather (1662–1727) Physician
    • John Harris (1666–1719) Mathematician
    • John Woodward (1665–1728) Paleontology
    • William Whiston (1667–1752) Physics, Geology
    • John Hutchinson (1674–1737) Paleontology
    • Johathan Edwards (1703–1758) Physics, Meteorology
    • Carolus Linneaus (1707–1778) Taxonomy; Biological classification system
    • Jean Deluc (1727–1817) Geology
    • Richard Kirwan (1733–1812) Mineralogy
    • William Herschel (1738–1822) Galactic astronomy; Uranus (probably believed in an old-earth)
    • James Parkinson (1755–1824) Physician (old-earth compromiser*)
    • John Dalton (1766–1844) Atomic theory; Gas law
    • John Kidd, M.D. (1775–1851) Chemical synthetics (old-earth compromiser*)
    Just Before Darwin
    • The 19 th Century Scriptural Geologists, by Dr Terry Mortenson
    • Timothy Dwight (1752–1817) Educator
    • William Kirby (1759–1850) Entomologist
    • Jedidiah Morse (1761–1826) Geographer
    • Benjamin Barton (1766–1815) Botanist; Zoologist
    • John Dalton (1766–1844) Father of the Modern Atomic Theory; Chemistry
    • Georges Cuvier (1769–1832) Comparative anatomy, paleontology (old-earth compromiser*)
    • Samuel Miller (1770–1840) Clergy
    • Charles Bell (1774–1842) Anatomist
    • John Kidd (1775–1851) Chemistry
    • Humphrey Davy (1778–1829) Thermokinetics; Safety lamp
    • Benjamin Silliman (1779–1864) Mineralogist (old-earth compromiser*)
    • Peter Mark Roget (1779–1869) Physician; Physiologist
    • Thomas Chalmers (1780–1847) Professor (old-earth compromiser*)
    • David Brewster (1781–1868) Optical mineralogy, Kaleidoscope (probably believed in an old-earth)
    • William Buckland (1784–1856) Geologist (old-earth compromiser*)
    • William Prout (1785–1850) Food chemistry (probably believed in an old-earth)
    • Adam Sedgwick (1785–1873) Geology (old-earth compromiser*)
    • Michael Faraday (1791–1867) (WOH) Electro magnetics; Field theory, Generator
    • Samuel F.B. Morse (1791–1872) Telegraph
    • John Herschel (1792–1871) Astronomy (old-earth compromiser*)
    • Edward Hitchcock (1793–1864) Geology (old-earth compromiser*)
    • William Whewell (1794–1866) Anemometer (old-earth compromiser*)
    • Joseph Henry (1797–1878) Electric motor; Galvanometer
    Just After Darwin
    • Richard Owen (1804–1892) Zoology; Paleontology (old-earth compromiser*)
    • Matthew Maury (1806–1873) Oceanography, Hydrography (probably believed in an old-earth*)
    • Louis Agassiz (1807–1873) Glaciology, Ichthyology (old-earth compromiser, polygenist*)
    • Henry Rogers (1808–1866) Geology
    • James Glaisher (1809–1903) Meteorology
    • Philip H. Gosse (1810–1888) Ornithologist; Zoology
    • Sir Henry Rawlinson (1810–1895) Archeologist
    • James Simpson (1811–1870) Gynecology, Anesthesiology
    • James Dana (1813–1895) Geology (old-earth compromiser*)
    • Sir Joseph Henry Gilbert (1817–1901) Agricultural Chemist
    • James Joule (1818–1889) Thermodynamics
    • Thomas Anderson (1819–1874) Chemist
    • Charles Piazzi Smyth (1819–1900) Astronomy
    • George Stokes (1819–1903) Fluid Mechanics
    • John William Dawson (1820–1899) Geology (probably believed in an old-earth*)
    • Rudolph Virchow (1821–1902) Pathology
    • Gregor Mendel (1822–1884) (WOH) Genetics
    • Louis Pasteur (1822–1895) (WOH) Bacteriology, Biochemistry; Sterilization; Immunization
    • Henri Fabre (1823–1915) Entomology of living insects
    • William Thompson, Lord Kelvin (1824–1907) Energetics; Absolute temperatures; Atlantic cable (believed in an older earth than the Bible indicates, but far younger than the evolutionists wanted*)
    • William Huggins (1824–1910) Astral spectrometry
    • Bernhard Riemann (1826–1866) Non-Euclidean geometries
    • Joseph Lister (1827–1912) Antiseptic surgery
    • Balfour Stewart (1828–1887) Ionospheric electricity
    • James Clerk Maxwell (1831–1879) (WOH) Electrodynamics; Statistical thermodynamics
    • P.G. Tait (1831–1901) Vector analysis
    • John Bell Pettigrew (1834–1908) Anatomist; Physiologist
    • John Strutt, Lord Rayleigh (1842–1919) Similitude; Model Analysis; Inert Gases
    • Sir William Abney (1843–1920) Astronomy
    • Alexander MacAlister (1844–1919) Anatomy
    • A.H. Sayce (1845–1933) Archeologist
    • John Ambrose Fleming (1849–1945) Electronics; Electron tube; Thermionic valve
    The Modern Period
    • Dr Clifford Burdick, Geologist
    • George Washington Carver (1864–1943) Inventor
    • L. Merson Davies (1890–1960) Geology; Paleontology
    • Douglas Dewar (1875–1957) Ornithologist
    • Howard A. Kelly (1858–1943) Gynecology
    • Paul Lemoine (1878–1940) Geology
    • Dr Frank Marsh, Biology
    • Dr John Mann, Agriculturist, biological control pioneer
    • Edward H. Maunder (1851–1928) Astronomy
    • William Mitchell Ramsay (1851–1939) Archeologist
    • William Ramsay (1852–1916) Isotopic chemistry, Element transmutation
    • Charles Stine (1882–1954) Organic Chemist
    • Dr Arthur Rendle-Short (1885–1955) Surgeon
    • Sir Cecil P. G. Wakeley (1892–1979) Surgeon
    • Dr Larry Butler, Biochemist
    • Prof. Verna Wright, Rheumatologist (deceased 1997)
    • Arthur E. Wilder-Smith (1915–1995) Three science doctorates; a creation science pioneer
  • yaddayadda
    yaddayadda

    Seattle, as stated, I can accept a persons reasons for being agnostic. Agnosticism is actually quite reasonable in many ways, because agnostics at least make allowance for the possibility that God exists. They just don't find the current evidence compelling enough. However, atheism is a self-contradictory, arrogant position, often motivated more by personal bias than a true, objective scientific logical conclusion. Many persons will admit that they dislike the idea of a God because they resent organised religion and the idea of being morally accountable to a higher being. It is just the antithesis, the flip side, of religious dogmatism.

    To say there is no God is to say you have enough knowledge to know there is no God. But an atheist can never have enough knowledge to be certain there is no God. He would have to know everything, because if there is something outside his area of knowledge, that something could include God. An atheist would have to be everywhere in and out of the universe all at one time, because if there is anywhere he cannot be, God could be there.

    No atheist can claim total knowledge, therefore atheism is self–refuting, because knowing everything and being everywhere is to be like God. Since no one can prove ‘there is no God’, the question becomes irrelevant and so does atheism. Thus, Creation cannot be ruled out as a potential alternative.

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    yaddayadda,

    I think you are mischaracterizing atheism. Sure, some atheists dogmatically say there is no possible way for God to exist. But that's unreasonable, as you point out, since no one has all the facts about the universe.

    I used to call myself an agnostic until I realized that it was unnecessary. If you don't believe in gnomes, you could say you are agnostic on the issue of whether gnomes exist. But the reality is that if you are unconvinced of gnomes, then you don't think they exist, plain and simple. Just because someone is an "agnomist" doesn't mean that they could never possibily accept that gnomes exist. It just means they currently don't believe they do.

    Likewise, I could say I am agnostic if that makes you feel better. I haven't seen any convincing evidence, and it doesn't seem likely that anyone will ever present any to me. God might exist, sure. But I don't believe that he/she/it does. If I don't believe in God, I am a non-theist. An a-theist. An atheist.

    Any reasonable person, no matter what the label, is willing to change their views if the available data changes. The fact that I don't believe in gods now doesn't mean that I refuse to accept that they could possibly exist. There are whole worlds of possibilities out there. But just because something is possible doesn't mean that it is true.

    People make all sorts of distinctions like hard-atheist, soft-atheist, etc, etc. I see them as superfluous. I don't believe in gods. I'd love to see evidence, and I'd switch over to belief if there were any. But at present, the status is "no belief." Therefore, the correct label is "atheist." But we're really a nice bunch of people when you get to know us. :-)

    SNG

  • Shazard
    Shazard

    seatle, question - what evidence you accept in general? what for you is "evidence"?

  • seattleniceguy
    seattleniceguy

    I'm open to any factual information and logical argumentation.

    SNG

  • yaddayadda
    yaddayadda

    The Cosmological argument for the existence of God

    The Cosmological argument derives its title from the fact that it is derived from observing the world around us (the cosmos). It begins with what is most obvious in reality: the fact that things exist (as Descartes noted, if you doubt this then you, at least, must be existing in order to doubt!). It is then argued that the cause of those thing's existence had to be a "God-type" thing. These types of arguments go all the way back to Plato and have been used by notable philosophers and theologians ever since. Besides being philosophically evident, science finally caught up with theologians in the 20th century when it was confirmed that the universe had to have a beginning. So today the arguments are even powerful for non-philosophers. There are two basic forms of these arguments and the easiest way to think of them might be what are called the "vertical" and the "horizontal" forms. These titles indicate the direction that the causes come from. In the vertical form it is argued that every created thing is being caused right now (imagine a timeline with an arrow pointing up from the universe to God). The horizontal version shows that creation had to have a cause in the beginning (imagine that same timeline only with an arrow pointing backward to a beginning point in time).

    The horizontal is a little easier to understand because it does not require much in the way of philosophy to grasp. The basic argument is that all things that have beginnings had to have causes. The universe had a beginning, therefore the universe had a cause. That cause, being outside the whole universe, is God. Someone might say that some things are caused by other things, but this does not solve the problem. This is because those other things had to have causes too, and this cannot go on forever. Why not? Let's take a simple example: trees. All trees began to exist at some point (for they have not always existed). Each tree had its beginning in a seed (the "cause" of the tree). But every seed had its beginning ("cause") in another tree. See where this is going? You can't have an infinite series of tree-seed-tree-seed because no series is infinite - they cannot go on forever. All series are finite (limited) by definition. There is no such thing as an infinite number because even the number series is limited (although you can always add one more, you are always at a finite number). If there is an end, it is not infinite. All series have two endings actually - at the end and at the beginning (if you don't see why this is true try to imagine a one ended stick!). But if there was no first cause, the chain of causes never would have started. Therefore there is, at the beginning at least, a first cause - one that had no beginning. This first cause is God.

    The vertical form is a bit more difficult to understand, but it is more powerful because not only does it show that God had to cause the "chain of causes," in the beginning, He must still be causing things to exist right now. Once again we begin by noting that things exist. Second, while we often tend to think of existence as a property that things sort of own - that once something is created existence is just part of what it is - this is not the case. Consider a simple example - a triangle. We can define the nature of a triangle as "the plane figure formed by connecting three points not in a straight line by straight line segments." Notice what is not part of this definition: existence.

    This definition would hold true even if no triangles existed at all. Therefore a triangle's nature - what it is - does not guarantee that one exists (like unicorns - we know what they are but that does not make them exist). Because it is not part of a triangle's nature to exist, triangles must be made to exist by something that else that already exists (such as myself drawing one on a piece of paper). But it also do not exist simply because of what I am - so I have to be given existence as well. This cannot go on forever (no infinite series, remember?). Therefore something that does not need to be given existence must exist to give everything else existence. Now apply this example to everything in the universe - does any of it it exist on its own? No. So, not only did the universe had to have a first cause to get started, it needs something to give it existence right now. The only thing that would not have to be given existence is a thing that exists as its very nature. It is existence. This thing would always exist, have no cause, have no beginning, have no limit, be outside of time, be infinite, . . . sound familiar? It should! It is God!

    the Teleological argument for the existence of God?"

    The word "teleology" comes from "telos" which means "purpose" or "goal." The idea is that it takes a "purposer" to have purpose, and so where we see things obviously intended for a purpose something had to have caused it for a reason. Design implies a designer in other words. We instinctively do this all the time. The difference between the Grand Canyon and Mount Rushmore is obvious - one is designed, one is not. The Grand Canyon was clearly formed by non-rational, natural processes, whereas Mount Rushmore was clearly created by an intelligent being - a designer. When we are walking down the beach and see a watch we do not assume that time and random chance produced it from blowing sand around. Why? Because it has the clear marks of design - it has a purpose, it conveys information, it is specifically complex, etc. In no scientific field is design considered to be spontaneous, it always implies a designer, and the greater the design, the greater the designer. Thus, taking the assumptions of science the universe would require a designer beyond itself (i.e. supernatural).

    N ow the teleological argument applies this criteria to the whole universe. If designs imply a designer, and the universe shows marks of design, then the universe was created. Clearly every life form in earth's history has been highly complex. A single strand of DNA equates to one volume of the encyclopedia Britannica. The human brain is approximately 10 billion gigabytes in capacity. Besides living things here on earth, the whole universe seems designed for life. Literally hundreds of conditions are required for life on earth - everything from the mass density of the universe down to earthquake activity must be fine tuned in order for life to survive. The random chance of all these things occurring is literally beyond imagination - the odds are many orders of magnitude higher than the number of atomic articles in the whole universe! With this much design it is difficult to believe that we just got lucky. In fact top atheist philosopher Antony Flew's recent conversion to Theism was based largely on this argument.

    In addition to being used to demonstrate God's existence, the teleological argument also exposes shortcomings in the theory of Evolution. The Intelligent Design movement in science applies information theory to life systems and shows that chance cannot even begin to explain its complexity. In fact, even single celled bacteria are so complex that without all of their parts working together at the same time they would have no survival potential - that means those parts could not have developed by chance. Darwin recognized that this might be a problem someday just by looking at the human eye. Little did he know that even single celled creatures have too much complexity to explain without a creator!

    the Moral argument for the existence of God?"

    The Moral argument begins with the fact that all people recognize some moral code (that some things are right, and some things are wrong). Every time we argue over right and wrong we appeal to a higher law that we assume everyone is aware of, holds to, and is not free to arbitrarily change. Right and wrong imply a higher standard or law, and law requires a lawgiver. Because the Moral Law transcends humanity, this universal law requires a universal lawgiver. This, it is argued, is God. In support, we see that even the most remote tribes who have been cut off from the rest of civilization observe a moral code similar to everyone else's. Although differences certainly exist in civil matters, virtues like bravery and loyalty and vices like greed and cowardice are universal. If man was responsible for that code, it would differ as much as every other thing that man has invented. Further, it is not simply a record of what mankind does - rarely does one ever live up to their own moral code. Where, then, do we get these ideas of what should be done? Romans 2:14-15 says that the moral law (or conscience) come from an ultimate lawgiver above man. If this is true then we would expect to find exactly what we have observed. This lawgiver is God.

    To put it negatively, atheism provides no basis for morality, no hope, and no meaning for life. While this does not disprove atheism by itself, if the logical outworking of a belief system fails to account for what we instinctively know to be true it ought to be discarded. Without God there would be no objective basis for morality, no life, and no reason to live it. Yet all these things do exist, and so does God. Thus, the moral argument for the existence of God.

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