calvin and armenias

by I-CH-TH-U-S 22 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  I-CH-TH-U-S

  
  ive been doing some research latley in the christian church on the Calvinism vs Arminian debate. and im just curious to what the JW believe on this..example

  Calvinism:

  1) Total Depravity - Man is so evil because of original sin, and actual sin, that he cannot even bend his "will"
  
  towards God. All acts of good are then done by God and his will and not by any decision of man, though it may appear so to us.
  
  
  
  Unconditional Election - Man has no conditions (i.e. Faith, Baptism, Repentance) by which God will save him. Only God's grace allows a person to be saved and the grace will make the person who is unwilling willing to choose God. Since not everyone is saved, God must not have "predestined" certain persons unto salvation.

  3) L imited Atonement - Since God did not want everyone to be saved, Christ's death must not have been meant to save everyone on this planet from their sins, but rather Christ's death was only meant for those He chose.
  
  
  4) I rresistible Grace - For those that God chose to be His, they cannot, no matter what, remain unwilling and "resist" God's salvation.
  
  
  5) P erseverance of the Saints - For those that God Chose, they cannot by any means walk away from their Salvation... a.k.a. "Once Saved Always Saved"

  Arminianism

  1) Man is not so totally depraved that he cannot choose God, but is still "bent" or has "tendencies" towards sin. Though Total Depravity is not in existence, any moderate amount of depravity stems from Actual Sin not Original Sin.
  
  2) God extends Salvation to us, we must receive it by Faith. Grace aids this. Predestination is based on Foreseen Faith.
  
  To some, Works are apart of such faith, whereas Belief + Works = Faith, see James2:24.
  
  (Which and What works are not defined, but generally involve belief and confession, sometimes baptism.)
  
  3) Saving Grace is Resistible!
  
  4) Christ's Atonement is available to all People.
  
  5) Man can effectively choose out of Salvation.

  any thoughts?

  PS: i note the calvin side is a little bias but thats cause i think most of it is incorrect theology
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  LittleToe

  They are basically Arminian.

  You'll have to point out Calvin's dodgy theology, because to me it seems as rational an explanation of scripture as you're going to get.

  LT, of the "Calvinist" class
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  M.J.

  I think it's too hard to understand so I generally pass!

  I was really struck by the implications of stuff that Paul says...and if you extend his reasoning it really does support the Calvinist point of view.

  But then again other parts of the bible don't seem to be coming from that angle.

  So I don't think the Bible really delivers a totally coherent package on the subject...at least not in a way that we are capable of nicely tying together, IMO. So the debate rages on.
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  I-CH-TH-U-S

  this site has some good reference on calvinism with scripture

  www.mslick.com/tulip.htm
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  LittleToe

  I'll tell you the single point upon which I really like Calvin's theology, and that's the last point of TULIP - Perseverance of the saints.

  Basically it runs along the premise that if God is omniscient and has bothered his @ss to know you so that you can enjoy a relationship with Him, then you're as safe as safe can be. Once saved, always saved.

  Bear in mind that this is using the Christian framework, but I think that it can become a lynchpin for contentment under this philosophy. God no longer becomes a hard taskmaster who can drop you on a whim. It is sooo unlike the JW/Arminian view.

  The only biblical counter that the JWs can offer is usually "beware he who thinks he is standing that he does not fall", to which I would counter; that you need to put some emphasis on the word "thinks".
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  I-CH-TH-U-S

  I'll tell you the single point upon which I really like Calvin's theology, ;and that's the last point of TULIP - Perseverance of the saints.

  see i agreed with you on this point for awile but then i talked with some people i look up too and who have solid theology and also did my own personal research in the bible towards that end. my results came to John 15:5 - If a man remains in me and I in Him he will bear much fruit. apart from me he can do nothing.

  what i got out of this was that it is a 2 part thing. we being in God and God being in us, not just the one
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  Shazard

  To say, that God does not want all to be saved is against scripture 1 Tim 2:3-4
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  zen nudist

  JWs believe in a willfully ignorant god [genesis 18:20-21] who does not know all things by choice.

  in this way they believe that what is foreordained and predestined is the type of people, not the individuals who would make up that type.

  they believe that no one comes to Jesus lest the father draws them....meaning those who see what sort of nazi molevolant god Jehovah is and think he is the $#!+ will likely find Jesus the way to go and respond to his message of lovingly kiss my @$$ or else!

  those who do respond to this message must ENDURE to the end... or as Paul put it, to strive for the prize.... while their works will not save them, their lack of faithful works will damn them.

  those who tasted of the heavenly free gift and turned their back on them are eternally doomed, etc.
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  Deputy Dog

  LT

  They are basically Arminian.

  
  Are they not more Pelagian than Arminian? From:http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/p/pelagianism.html

  The basis of Pelagian was strictly a Storic doctrine of free will and the innate goodness of nature. It stated the belief that the Sin of Adam did not permanently corrupt the nature of man, but only temporarily modified it. Such a modification was keen in the teaching, for it was firmly believed that man with the use of his free will alone could achieve spiritual advancement. This was to say, sin modified human nature, but never was the effect of sin inherited making human nature evil itself, as declared in the doctrine of original sin as put forth by Saint Augustine. Pelagius believed: 1. That Adam would have died even if he had not sin;
  2. That the sin of Adam injured himself alone, not the human race;
  3. That newborn children are in the same condition as Adam was before the Fall; corollary; that infants, though unbaptized, have eternal life;
  4. That the whole human race does not die because of Adam's death or sin, nor will it rise again because of Christ's resurrection;
  5. That the Old Testament Law, as well as the New Testament Gospel, gives entrance to heaven; and
  6. That even before the coming of Christ there were men who were entirely without sin. D Dog
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  undercover

  ...and I thought this was gonna be a Calvin and Hobbes thread...