Source material: "144,000" and "anointed" in The Watchtower, 2000-2015

by Doug Mason 26 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Doug Mason

  A collation of statements made in The Watchtower from 2000 to 2015 of "144,000" and "anointed"
  

  http://www.jwstudies.com/WT_magazines_from_2000_to_2015_on_144000_and_the_anointed.pdf
  

  Doug
  
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  CharlieSmith1975

  JWs have a misconception of the 144,000. The 144,000 are the natural Jews in the kingdom. The "source" for understanding the 144,000 is Isa. 6:13

  "13 “But there will still be a tenth in it, and it will again be burned, like a big tree and like an oak, which after they are cut down leave a stump; a holy seed* will be its stump.”

  In other words, yes the Jews fail and their tree is cut down, but God leaves a holy root. That holy root is the 144,000 made up of natural Jews, 12K from each tribe. The rest of the tree are the grated in gentiles who make up 90% of the tree, which is 1,440,000 total.

  JWs don't understand this. Thanks for pointing out their false teaching in this regard.

  Charlie
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  Doug Mason

  Please tell me, Charlie, since you accept this kind of ideology:

  Where is this "heaven" place physically located? (The ancients said the sky (firmament) was solid with God sitting just above it, taking a personal interest.)
  

  How do they keep in contact? How long does a message take to be delivered?

  What will happen when earth is devoured when the sun is destroyed?

  Why do people accept superstitions? Why should stuff written under the name of "Isaiah" be accepted? What was written originally? What is your proof that the writers of Revelation had this text in Isaiah in mind, given that they were written some 700 years apart?
  

  What about the billions of other planets?
  

  Thanks,

  Doug
  
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  CharlieSmith1975

  Dear Mr. Mason.

  You have a lot of questions reflecting your doubts and skepticism, it would seem.

  I trust the Bible based on what I believe and in part on my own experiences and research. But as I've learned over time, much of what one person sees and understand is not transferable.

  As far as exactly where "heaven" is, I really have no idea. But it also doesn't matter since I believe God exists in dimensions not related to the physical world or even related to our concept of time. I know, relatively speaking, often when angels come to the earth they are spoken of as going "down" into the earth. Actually, and I have no real basis for this, I think the universe is like an ornament of sorts in the middle of the floor in front of God's thrown, like a black whole. The Bible says the earth is God's "footstool." So when angels go into the universe they go into this object at God's feet. Nothing I can prove though.

  In your case, I think you want not to believe without proof. But while I don't need "proof" for everything I believe, I wouldn't believe if you were able to actually disprove it. So we are on opposite sides of that equasion. So I can still believe what is not disproved and you can't believe what is not proved. That's okay. We need more skeptics in the world, actually, I think.

  Have a great day.
  
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  steve2

  Oh, an overview of all Watchtower literature references to the 144,000 becomes an opportunity for another poster to promulgate an alternative dogmatic "Scriptural" interpretation of what that number means. How wonderful.
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  Doug Mason

  Charlie,

  I fully respect your right to you having your beliefs. I am asking you in all sincerity: why believe the Bible? Have you researched Lower Criticism, Higher Criticism, or the canonisation processes?

  It is too easy to hide behind pigeon-holes such as "skeptic" without addressing the substance.

  If your foundation is only belief, then do not be dogmatic that you are correct and that you "know" other interpretations are incorrect.

  On what basis do you know that the writers at Rev 7 and Rev 14 were explicitly referring to that text in Isaiah?

  Doug
  
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  Doug Mason

  Steve,

  This overview of recent statements in The Watchtower is revealing, showing for one example, the dramatic shift that took place in 2013 to the Watchtower's foundations. This pattern of moving the goal posts is a regular phenomenon, even when they do it to their own foundations.

  When will the WTS find their foundation Truth if it is regularly changed ("adjusted" in WT parlance)? Or is loyalty more significant than honesty?

  Sure we will find people we do not agree with ("nutters"), but at least we must permit people to have their ideas, which is a luxury that is not exercised by the autocratic Governing Body.

  Doug
  
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  CharlieSmith1975

  Charlie,

  I fully respect your right to you having your beliefs. I am asking you in all sincerity: why believe the Bible? Have you researched Lower Criticism, Higher Criticism, or the canonization processes?

  It is too easy to hide behind pigeon-holes such as "skeptic" without addressing the substance.

  If your foundation is only belief, then do not be dogmatic that you are correct and that you "know" other interpretations are incorrect.

  On what basis do you know that the writers at Rev 7 and Rev 14 were explicitly referring to that text in Isaiah?

  Doug

  Actually, Doug, you're forcing me to admit more than I'd prefer to. And this is something you can never believe but it's true, but here goes:.

  Luke 9:27 ""Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God."

  
  

  1 Thess 4:15 "We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever."

  John 21:23 "Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"
  

  
  

  IF the Bible is true, then a group of people from the 1st Century never died and are still alive today. There were always two groups back then. Those who would die and be resurrected and those who would remain alive all that time until Christ returned. At 1 Thess. they were wondering who would end up in heaven first, those being resurrected or those who were "still alive" when he came? Paul explained that no one would go ahead of the other to heaven. But instead, the dead would first come back in physical bodies and join those still alive. Then after that they would be transformed. That is, all the elect are on the earth during the 1000-year reign of Christ, including Christ himself. Among those the Bible confirms would not die are John and Paul.

  
  

  Having said that and IF that is really true, then that adds a lot of confidence in whatever scriptures we have now available to us. That is, that what we have is sufficient and effective enough to fulfill its purpose. Plus it would be obvious that Paul and John were key in shepherding and manipulating what we have. Of course, obviously, Paul and John are the greatest contributors to the NT writers, are they not? John wrote John, 1 John, 2 John and 3 John, plus Revelation. Paul wrote all those letters.

  So from my perspective, whatever we have is basically what they allowed since they never died. You speak of the canon. I trust the canon because I know John and Paul had a lot to do with the canon. Now later on some other books not inspired got into even the common Bible, like Ecclesiates, Song of Solomon and the Book of Esther. But none of those books are cross-quoted from by the NT Bible writers, meaning John and Paul, who probably purposely cross-quoted from every book of the OT they considered to be inspired or wanted to include in the final product: the Bible.

  
  

  So it really isn't fair to ask me why I believe because I'm not really going by faith any more. I'm part of the secret conspiracy of John and Paul and other saints who have more direct access to God, angels and holy spirit. But I'm an incredible exception to the rule. That's why I don't blame you for not believing. But I believe because I'm part of the process and prophecies relating to the elect. You can't possibly believe John and Paul are still alive. I know that. But I've seen them personally, so I have to believe. It's just that simple.

  
  

  Now are you satisfied?
  
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  stillin

  Well. THAT kind of takes my breath away!
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  suavojr

  Wow, Charlie is a modern day living zombie