Bible-Trained, Christian Conscience?

by patio34 10 Replies latest jw friends

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  patio34

  In another thread by Silent Lambs, there are several references to the subject line.

  As a neophyte atheist/evolutionist (possibly) it seems as if the above references to 'Christian, Bible-trained' conscience imply some superiority to others of humans' consciences.

  I'm confidant there are many of my ilk who have made many huge contributions to the human race and were of high integrity. There have been many notable persons who were not Christian or Bible-trained.

  There also is a case to be made for the ones who have used negative facets of the Bible (everyone knows these--genocide, slavery, rape, incest, murder, polygamy) as their guide to great harm.

  In fact, another arguement can be made that a person brings their own morality to the Bible or other holy book. I.e., they use the parts that seem to be up to their own moral standards.

  What do you think?

  Pat
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  Silverleaf

  Hi Pat,

  I absolutely agree with you. I've read many tirades by those who seem to think that 'Bible-trained Christians' are the only people capable of moral behavior or 'good works' and anyone with a brain knows that's simply not true. Morality comes over time and is a response to the experiences we have in life. One does not need to be a 'Bible trained Christian' to be moral or good or to contribute something meaningful to society. Many agnostics and atheists and even polytheists have contributed greatly to society and they don't need the Bible or any other holy book to tell them right from wrong.

  Silverleaf
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  Francois

  The JW claim to a "bible-trained" conscience is pretty laughable. The Witnesses don't so much use the bible to "train" their consciences as they use the interpretative publications of the society. Not hardly the same thing, is it?

  A quick example of this interpretive approach may be seen in the account of Enoch of whom it is said that he did not see death, for God "took him." Fairly plain language. The WTBTS however, unsatisfied with the bible's statements concerning Enoch, redefines the transaction in its "Aid" book to say that what was really meant was that Enoch did not experience the pangs of death - whatever they are. The implication here being that the bible didn't really mean what it said, and that God's actions apparently weren't acceptable, Jesus having not come yet and providing a ransom sacrifice for Enoch and all.

  Bible-trained. Right.

  Francois
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  patio34

  Hi Francois and Silverleaf,

  It's so true. I'm pretty sure Thomas Jefferson was an outspoken atheist. But there are plenty of others, I just don't want to take the time to look it up.

  I should mention that the rationale of people bringing their own morality to a holy book is from a website by a 'smcroberts'. He has loads of good information on his search after leaving JWs. I don't have the address available right now, but the name may be enough.

  He gave the example of Gandhi quoting a certain holy book, which when you looked into it, was not holy at all, but violent (kind of like the Bible?). But Gandhi overlooked those parts and superimposed his morality.

  Pat
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  Silverleaf

  Hi again Pat, you wrote:

  >> I'm pretty sure Thomas Jefferson was an outspoken atheist. But there are plenty of others, I just don't want to take the time to look it up.<<

  I found an interesting site,

  http://www.visi.com/~markg/atheists.html

  that lists quite an array of famous people as being atheist or 'non-theist.' Notable among them: Abraham Lincoln, Walt Whitman, Mark Twain, Thomas Edison, Sigmund Freud, H.G. Wells, Frank Lloyd Wright, Albert Einstein, Isaac Asimov, Gene Roddenberry and Carl Sagan - and that's only naming a few. Most of those listed are known for intelligence, creativity and innovating ideas.

  It makes you go hmmmmmm, doesn't it?

  Silverleaf
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  Stephanus

  What a deceptively biased sample, Silverleaf! What about those who made contributions who were theists or deists?: Newton, Darwin, Franklin, von Braun, Kelvin, for starters... I question Einstein's presence on your list, too.
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  Silverleaf

  Hello Stephanus,

  The list is not mine, I found it on the web and took a sampling of people listed there whom I thought were notable. There are tons of others and Charles Darwin actually WAS on the list also. These people were chosen based either on definitive statements made by them they did not believe in diety or on statements that seemed to convey that idea. I never said theists didn't contribute anything to society, I merely provided some support for Pat's argument that non-theists and atheists are very capable of being intelligent, moral and noteworthy contributors to society.

  Silverleaf
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  patio34

  Hi Stephanus,

  The list of names is proferred merely to show non-theists do not need a 'Bible-trained conscience' in order to be very moral persons.

  Since leaving JWs and the Bible, I have found myself more honest in some areas because it's what I want to be, not what someone is telling me i have to be.

  And in other areas, less honest. The picayune things such as whether someone is in a meeting instead of the restroom that don't matter.

  Moral people don't need the Bible or other holy book necessarily. And Christians do not have a superior morality necessarily. In fact, maybe inferior at times.

  Pat
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  patio34

  Silverleaf,

  Thanks for the site. That'll be handy to bookmark for future reference.

  Pat
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  waiting

  Howdy Pat,

  As jw's, we truly felt that we were the most honest, most truthful, most loving (agape love, of course), most godly-loyal people on the earth. We knew it because the WTBTS told us so.

  We would grudingly admit that there were "other good people" on the earth - but that wouldn't save them at Armageddon because we had The Truth. Being good wasn't good enough - and "bad association spoils useful habits."

  But it also gave us a tainted look at the world - and how we fit in. We were superior to everyone else - and it was only because we were Jehovah's Witnesses - not because we were good people in our own-trained hearts and consciences.

  When we left....did we become thieves, rapists, murderers? Naaaaa, just the same ol' people with more time every week (and I loooove that!). But, at least for me, I started to realize that when a chance comes to steal something where I won't get caught - I don't.

  But now I don't because I don't want to be that kind of person. I thought I didn't before because of my bible-trained conscience - but that wasn't why - it was my private ethics. And I still have them.

  In fact, now sometimes, my ethics get reinforcement because I'll be damned if some jw is going to get the satisfaction of saying "well, she's certainly gone downhill since leaving The Truth" - even if they never know.

  It's the principle of the matter, and our principles.

  waiting