HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS PARADOX?

by Terry 61 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

Terry

Religion is a cultural universal. ALL cultures have forms of religion. That is alot of differnt religions, beliefs and ways of looking at the world! From the Hopi Indians, to the Jews, to a small tribe of native people living in the deep rainforest, to western people's Chrisianity or New Age, to the East, and all stops in between. If you are going to argue against ALL RELIGION, you really to have to make sure you are arguing ALL RELIGION. Otherwise, we must call it what it is: an argument against Christianity.

Alcoholism is a cultural universal. So is poverty and injustice. These are the failures of human reason. The prevalence of ignorance is pretty much a cultural universal as well. My point? Being cultural and universal is no argument in support of any of these feckless conditions. So too with religion.
Religion can only do two things: represent an answer to a question of behavior and attitude which, when followed precisely, improves your lot in life. OR....represent a state of being which requires compliance in order to avoid some disaster. Otherwise there would be no reason for allowing it into a society in the first place.
Religions almost always have professional representatives who will instruct you in exchange for something valuable. These representatives are called by many and various titles; but, suffice it to say you must deal with at least one of them to get to the next stage of "development" or "enlightenment". This is invariably a racket. But, I know you'll be shocked and apalled I would say such a cynical thing. Shaman, witchdoctors, priests, rabbis, gurus, sensei--they all will trade their mystical treasure for your gold.
Religious experts (self-styled) whether they be a Deepak Chopra or a Dali Lama all live the good life by telling people colorful lies dressed up as transcendant truths. They smile a lot and promise all manner of goodness and benevolence and live off the coin of the realm tossed their way by grateful disciples. All they really provide are unsupported claims!
I work in a bookstore where people come in and buy these books by the fistful parting eagerly with their hard-earned money to gain heaven-knows-what. The list is endless and it takes many forms: Yoga, mythology, self-help, trance-channeling, e.s.p., remote-viewing, telekinesis, wikka, Tarot, I Ching and and a whole host of crackpot diets and procedures all designed to do one thing: REMOVE YOU FROM YOUR MONEY. The people who buy in to this nonsense fool themselves first and then turn around and exclaim inordinate wonders to their friends and neighbors. It is pathetic hogwash and self-deception.
All religion offers something bigger than life with a mystical hook hidden inside the bait.
I haven't heard you say one word of justification for defending ALL religion against my charges.
I've only heard you trying to pry at least one example away from the smell of fraud and humbuggery.
Why?
What does religion do for you that is so wonderful?
T.
upside/down

IF MAN IS FLAWED, TRICKY AND POLLUTED........WHY TRUST HIM AT ALL WITH ANY MESSEGE PURPORTED TO BE PURE AND TRUE???

There in, lies your answer...
u/d
lisaBObeesa

Being cultural and universal is no argument in support of any of these feckless conditions.

And who said they did? I didn't say that. Did someone say that? The point of mentioning that it is a cultural universal was not to prove religion is right, it was to show that there are thousands and thousands of different kinds of religions, many of which to do not fit in your 'religion' box.
I haven't heard you say one word of justification for defending ALL religion against my charges.
Now you are starting to hear me. You are right. I have not said one word of justification for defending ALL religion against your charges. I said you haven't GOT any charges against ALL religion. Not yet on this thread, anyway.
Peace out, -Lisa
Terry

Now you are starting to hear me. You are right. I have not said one word of justification for defending ALL religion against your charges. I said you haven't GOT any charges against ALL religion. Not yet on this thread, anyway. Peace out, -Lisa

If I haven't made my charges crystal clear then somebody has broken their reading glasses!
How much more precisely does a statement have to be made to qualify?
ALL....yes...ALL...religion is humbuggery.
The best way to demonstrate that to you is to actually get you to come out in the open and make go of it.
You give me an example of a religion...ANY religion anywhere and I'll demonstrate to you the mystical claptrap it is based on.
I think you might not see how subtle the underlying issue is in seemingly "benign" religions that are fluffy like a goose-down pillow.
Sin is called by other names in these religions. Often the "offense" a person carries around with them which has to be cleansed by a ritual consists of some sort of curse or ancestral blemish perceived by the religious practioner. Sometimes it is the appeasement of dead family members or the local gods which requires the assistance of the necromancer, witchdoctor or guru. In still other instances the sin is called "having angry thoughts" or other baloney.
The point of it all is cause the devotee to feel damaged and in need of religious instructions or rituals.
The victims of religion feel family and societal pressure to approach the priest or shaman for answers because he cannot figure it out for himself. (Due to the fact there IS NO PROBLEM except a make-believe one.)
It is not uncommon for naive and gullible people to be tricked by religious leaders by demonstrations of "power" which are hoaxes or merely testimonial claims. Almost every civilization has had magi, magus, sorcerers and such who can razzle-dazzle you with some trumped up displays that purport to demonstrate their connection to the supernatural.
If you have some specific way of demonstrating to me that there is a religion that relies on something other than this pattern (in whatever form or parlance) I'd be very surprised.
Surely you must have SOMETHING in mind?
T.
moshe

Even dismissing all religions as unproven or even a hoax we are left wondering why man developed (and no other animal) a conscience, a moral compass & compassion for the weak/sick for starters. Our species could have survived just fine without these traits. When did man get these traits , how and why? That is the mysery religion tries to answer, not perfectly by any means. We are just searching for an answer that works for us. Even if the formula is flawed , most people have yet to see an acceptable alternative to religion. Now when a religion harms people and destroys lives ,we need to question it's right to exist ,as it then goes against our moral compass.
peace,
Moshe
Terry

Even dismissing all religions as unproven or even a hoax we are left wondering why man developed (and no other animal) a conscience, a moral compass & compassion for the weak/sick for starters. Our species could have survived just fine without these traits. When did man get these traits , how and why? That is the mysery religion tries to answer, not perfectly by any means. We are just searching for an answer that works for us. Even if the formula is flawed , most people have yet to see an acceptable alternative to religion. Now when a religion harms people and destroys lives ,we need to question it's right to exist ,as it then goes against our moral compass.

I have my own theory.

It goes like this....

Man became conscious that he was conscious (he became aware of his identity as a "self") reflectively.

He developed a personal identity.

Man developed a useful way of making things representational: language. (And writing)

With language man could talk to himself about what his own thoughts were!

This voice inside the head became able to project concepts which did not/could not refer to actually existing things: imagination was born.

Imagination became a tool of hypothesis and problem solving by starting out with a "What if....?"

The imaginary became, at times, indistinguishable from the actual: superstition was born. Hallucinations, fears, anthropomorphic idealizations of the unknown became a cast of characters. Story telling embodied the imaginary as "actual" persons in time and space and served as a way of modeling "why" certain things are the way they are. The mythology became detached from knowing it was all made up.

Man projected his own attributes outward and created an ideal of himself as his own causation: GOD.

Man had many attributes that were negative and many gods were necessary to embody the various projections.

As society progressed and became more sophisticated these mythological projects became focused into just ONE GOOD GOD AND ONE BAD ONE.

That would Judaism and eventually Christianity.

Other societies never went much beyond ancestor worship or appeasement of local deities.

THE FUNDAMENT CAUSE OF RELIGIOUS CONTINUATION IN A SOCIETY WOULD BE THE CON-MEN WHO JUMPED ON THE IDEA OF CONTROLLING PEOPLE THROUGH THEIR FEAR. The MYSTIC was born as a RELIGIOUS LEADER.

By setting up a ritual ceremony a priest could make a good living and use people for his own purposes.

The role of the priesthood became a useful tool in the hands of politicians.

The rest is history.
moshe

Man became conscious that he was conscious (he became aware of his identity as a "self") reflectively
And that is where the problem begins- self awareness. Why,How & When? If the answer turns out to be just a normal step in evolution- no supernatural intervention needed- then you are well on your way to a Nobel prize, my friend.
An interesting theory, otherwise-
peace,
Moshe
Terry

And that is where the problem begins- self awareness. Why,How & When? If the answer turns out to be just a normal step in evolution- no supernatural intervention needed- then you are well on your way to a Nobel prize, my friend.

I'll get the No bell prize for sure :)
I think the first religious thinkers were O.C.D. and had epilepsy.
T.
lisaBObeesa

If you have some specific way of demonstrating to me that there is a religion that relies on something other than this pattern (in whatever form or parlance) I'd be very surprised.
How about the numerous tribal religions whose job it is to carry and collect accumulated knowledge of the tribe, and explain the tibe's place in the world?
How about the numberous nature religions who believe that all of nature is divine, that all people have a connection to the divine and have no concept of original sin?
There are entire TYPES of religions that don't fit your pattern.
And no, I don't need glasses.
We just don't agree on what ALL Religions have in common.
Terry

How about the numerous tribal religions whose job it is to carry and collect accumulated knowledge of the tribe, and explain the tibe's place in the world?
How about the numberous nature religions who believe that all of nature is divine, that all people have a connection to the divine and have no concept of original sin?

I'd love for you to give me a link to a reference for the above named.
Never heard of them!
Sources please?
Many thanks.
T.

HOW DO WE SOLVE THIS PARADOX?

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