P.S. I think your nice as well
Mormons: Bedrock of a Faith Is Jolted
by AMNESIAN 35 Replies latest watchtower scandals
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AMNESIAN
That's very kind of you, sKally. Thanks so much.
AMNESIAN
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Terry
I found this to be very, very interesting.
Did I mention..VERY interesting?
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Abaddon
QcmbrAbbaddon you do talk some cr*p sometimes.
Well, if this was true you certainly have the experience to comment. But as already pointed out, your critical thinking ability is zero, so your ability to accurately assess crap even if it were right under your nose must be called into question. For the record, what distinguishes the vapourings of your prophet and those of;- Mohammed
- Ron L Hubbard
- Sun Myung Moon
- Charlie Russell
... go on, do enlighten me...
At the same time could you explain how the vacilation in doctrine over the status of black people and plural marriage is not a clear sign that Mormons make up and discard doctrine as politically expedient? And why is it called the "Bring 'em Young University?"
I'd be interested in your evidences of the Narnian story...
Well, I happen to feel it "has plenty of proofs if you want to interpret the evidences in a certain way".
For example, if is a fact that inter-dimensional travel using wardrobes has never been proved as impossible, nor have multiple realities been proven as impossible. If they are not impossible they are possible, even if there is not one shred of proof.
You for example maintain that Israelites travelled to North America. There is not one shred of proof for this outside Mr Smith's Book of Bollocks. Yet one cannot prove that such a claim is impossible. If it is not impossible, then it is possible, even in the absense of proof.
In fact, the only difference in their validity is that C S Lewis made no bones about the fact he was writing allegorical fiction, whereas Mr Smith claimed he was inspired by god. You are basing your entire life on claims of inspiration, not on fact.
If C S Lewis had claimed he was inspired of god and the Chronicles of Narnia were based on fact, then there would be NO DIFFERENCE between his claims and Mr Smith's claims. Both would have a book they claimed was inspired that had no proof to back it up.
But, you're mind is as soft as runny cheese. It doesn't have to be. You're not stupid. You allow yourself to wallow in this ridiculousness because you are afraid of letting go of illusory hopes.
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Qcmbr
Abaddon - vicious even for you.
Normally though I can expect a smidgeon of sound thought but here you just gave up when challenged directly and went vitriol mad.
All I want is your evidence of Narnia - I'm not going to defend LDS beliefs at this time - you made a bold statement as though it carried conclusive weight to disprove LDS beliefs and then utterly failed to produce it.
Now I do agree that no evidence, in context, is evidence, for example 'There are no weapons of mass destruction created by Saddam Hussein' can indeed be lent credence by the lack of evidence. Using the same premise to argue for interdimensional wardrobes is frankly bizzare. In one single sweep you reveal your own self rather than crush me with your brilliance. Making statements regarding why I may or may not believe certain things is a strawman and you know it is. Despite contradictory evidence that suggests beliefs gained through direct experience and my willingness to engage in reasoned polite debate you instead suggest it is my critical thinking ability that leads me to such irrational thinking.
Again Abbadon - I challenge you to separate your feelings RE soft runny cheese and indeed back up your assertion that there is any actual evidence to back up Narnia (and as a suggestion - using that time to further reinforce your acceptable suggestion that the LDS faith is wrong is not counted as proof for Narnia either.) -
Double Edge
At the same time could you explain how the vacilation in doctrine over the status of black people and plural marriage is not a clear sign that Mormons make up and discard doctrine as politically expedient?
{{{clearing throat}}} excuse me... I'd like to submit a historical fact to this 'debate'. As a student of American history, let me say that the mormons weren't different in their 'status' belief of black people than any mainstream American Christian church in the 19th and early 20th century. In fact, mormons were more liberal than their counterparts. By and large, "Christian" churches taught the inferiority of blacks, even after the civil war "settled" the issue. There were VERY few mixed white and black "Christian" congregations in the U.S. (can we say almost ZERO) up until the 1960's. Although few in number, African-Americans have been welcomed into mormon congregations throughout their history (though until the 1970's, males could not hold their priesthood offices). When the mormons went west in the mid 1800's and settled what is now the Utah desert, some African Americans were a part of their wagon trains and congregations. Looking back through 21st century eyes, the thought that anyone is 'inferior' to anyone else is really an ignorant (if not silly) notion. Strong, carried-on beliefs, however stupid, take time to die-off, and is usually left to the next generation or two. Why bring something up that's 'ancient' and hasn't been a doctrine for a generation or so? That too is either ignorant, stupid or silly. my 2 cents..... continue the carnage....
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upside/down
If we niche I'm out.
interesting...
How are they NOT "niched"?
u/d(of the all
cultsreligions are "niched" class) -
TD
Qcmbr,
Whether one believes there is anything supernatural to it or not, it cannot be denied that the Bible speaks of real places and at least some real people. If there is some way to look at the evidence and deny that Egypt existed or that Rome existed, or that Judea existed or that Pontius Pilate or James the Just existed then I am curious to hear it. I don't think it's a matter of how one interprets the information.
You can take a trip to the Holy Land if you're so inclined You can see the Mount of Olives, the Wailing Wall, the ruins of the house of Caiphus. You can see and sometimes touch artifacts that are contemporary with the Biblical account. You can learn Koine Greek of you're so inclined. You can get photostats or many extant Biblical manuscripts and see for yourself that the Bible is indeed an ancient collection of writings that dates back to at least the 3rd century A.D.
When were dealing with the BOM, things are a little different as you well know.
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Qcmbr
U/D - The LDS church claims its the only right one, the only one with a prophet etcetc so it couldn't possibly be a niche IF it was right as it would need to fulfill Daniel's prophecy ergo - not a niche but clearly dominant.
TD - I was careful above not to start trying to prove the BOM using some evidences that can be seen by all people but are only 'proofs' of the BOM if you so interpret them - just as the city of Jerusalem existing doesn't prove Jesus existed. Here are some things off the top of my head that are citable as evidence though I agree non are conclusive.
Legend of the white, bearded God who would return.
Wall murals showing white skinned people and dark skinned people.
Possible baptismal fonts found (maybe just a jacuzzi:)
Statues of bearded people.
Records written on metals (In both New and Ancient world)
Evidence of horses before Europeans arrived.
Appearance of fully formed cultures.
Tree of Life motif in Central America.
Usage of the symbol of cross predating Europeans.
Legends of a people who came by boat.
Los Lunas Decalog - hebrew style inscription found in Americas.
Wheels - Toys found with wheels . BOM mentions chariots. Most argued against wheels for Americas.
Usage of cement in some settlements.
Usage of chiasmus in BOM.
Usage of hebrew idomatic style (O that thou wouldst be like this valley)
Identification of different authours of BOM by computer analysis.
Asiatic combat styles and political systems described.
An accurate consistent description of the effects of guerilla warfare and how it was defeated.
DNA evidence that backs up the BOM assertion that the Americas were populated by Asiatics mainly.
Biblical 'proofs':
Ezekials two sticks
12 tribes, Josephs blessing (bough that would overflow the well and his inheritance was greater than Israel's in terms of land.)
Voice speaking from dust
Isaiah:
'Arise,Shine;' Kum-orah chapter
'I will proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder' - 'Yaw-aseph ..(anglicised english future tense - Joseph) (will) proceed to do a marvelous work and a wonder'
'I cannot read the words of a sealed book'
'I have created the smith to blow the coals'
'Mountain of Lord's House' to be established in 'Tops of the mountains' - Utah in the Ute language.
Now I hope you'll agree - this at least gives some room to have a sensible discussion about whether there is indeed anything that could point to truth behind Joseph Smith's claims unlike other comments regarding declared works of fiction.
P.S. Of course to the LDS non of these mean a fig since this isn't where we are expected to get our proof. -
Abaddon
Qcmbr
All I want is your evidence of Narnia
Are you mad? It's children's fiction written as a Christian allegory. At no point have I said there is real evidence for Narnia. I HAVE said that Narnia has "plenty of proofs if you want to interpret the evidences in a certain way", but the quoted sentence is your own.
You made this claim about the beliefs of the LDS. And the "evidences" are? A book without reputable provenance that is claimed to be inspired even in absense of any proof.
You're ignoring the FACT that the only difference between Joe Smith and C S Lewis is that one author admitted he made it up and the other claimed he didn't.
In terms of proof, as in physical evdience. there is as much evidence for Lehi and the wonderful imaginary pre-Colombian world of Joe Smith as for Edmund, Lucy, Susan and Peter.
The fact you can't see this validate all my comments about your ability to think critically/runny cheese head.
The LDS church claims its the only right one,
Yes, like many other cults.
so it couldn't possibly be a niche IF it was right as it would need to fulfill Daniel's prophecy ergo - not a niche but clearly dominant
But you can't prove it is right, therefore it is indistinguishable from other niche cults in all respects including it's claim to being right - a claim ALL cults have.
Legend of the white, bearded God who would return.
Not proof. It is not certain this myth was interpretted this was by the Aztecs until the Spanish came; Quetzalcoatl is increasingly identified as Venus and thus talk in prophecy of 'appearing in the West' is likey a reference to the calander. Also, Quetzalcoatl is in pre-Colombian art hundreds of years before Jesus. In any case, any claim about this legend being based upon Jesus visit to North America (ya know, inbetween going to Glastonbury and taking Mary Magdelene to France to found a dynasty there ) ignores the fact that Jesus was as white as Yassar Arafat.
Wall murals showing white skinned people and dark skinned people
Haven't you ever heard of 'ebony and ivory work together in perfect harmony'? LOL. Again, this isn't proof. It is nasty racist nonsense to imply that any Israelites who made it to the America as described in the Book of Mormon were white. They weren't.
Possible baptismal fonts found (maybe just a jacuzzi:)
Possible is not proof.
Statues of bearded people.
This is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
Records written on metals (In both New and Ancient world)
I assume you don't mean the Gilden Plates, as they ain't proof unless you can show me. I'm glad you bought up metallurgy though, as accodring to the Book of Mormon steel was in use by the ancient inhabitants of America; thius would be a BIG suprise to them!!! No proof whatsoever.
Evidence of horses before Europeans arrived.
This isn't desputed by anyone; they died out prior to 10,000 years bp, although relic populations may have persisted until 2,500 year bp. Either way, it is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
Appearance of fully formed cultures.
This is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
Tree of Life motif in Central America.
This is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
Usage of the symbol of cross predating Europeans.
This is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
Legends of a people who came by boat.
This is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Columbian_trans-oceanic_contact
Los Lunas Decalog - hebrew style inscription found in Americas
Interesting but inconsistent with any claim made in the book of Mormon, the language of the claimed Israelite immigrants, and the 'Reformed Egyptian' the book of Mormon was claimed to have been written in. It is plausable evidence, like a few other things, of pre-Colombian contact between the New World and the Old World. But everyone has already agreed there WAS pre-Colombian contact! This is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
Wheels - Toys found with wheels . BOM mentions chariots. Most argued against wheels for Americas.
Mmmmm... there's no proof of practical applications of the wheel (like wheel transport) prior to Colombus. The Olmecs seemd to have discovered the wheel and used it as a toy, much as the Chinese did with gunpowder... This is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
Usage of cement in some settlements.
Cement was developed several times in different places using suitable local materials. This is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
Usage of chiasmus in BOM
Usage of hebrew idomatic style (O that thou wouldst be like this valley)I sayest unto thou Qcmbr, doth thou not know that if this Joe Smith a charlatan was, Hebrew style is like unto the play of a child to imitate! Yay, I sayest, as Hebrew style is like unto childsplay to imitate, if Joe Smith a charlatan was, he would have found it like unto a child's play to imitate.
There's chiasmus and idomatic style for you; does this mean I am inspired of god too...? Such things prove nothing... whilst the absense of any proof of a Semitic language being used by established cultures in the Americas is yet another glaring piece of evidence pointing to the contrived nature of Joe Smiths book; he just subscribed to the theories of the time and supposed Native American languages were related to Semetic languages!!
Identification of different authours of BOM by computer analysis.
Ah! So more than one person faked it? Maybe several had a hand in coming up with ways to turn the ideas expressed in View of the Hebrews, a book written by Ethan Smith (no kin to Joe) into an 'inspired book'. You do know about that book I suppose? Written 5 years BEFORE the Book of Mormon? Maybe the Book of Mormon is inspired... of Ethan...!
Asiatic combat styles and political systems described.
Please specify how this could be proof.
An accurate consistent description of the effects of guerilla warfare and how it was defeated.
Anyone familiar with the War of Independence could create such a fictional account. This is not evidence that the BOM is accurate!
DNA evidence that backs up the BOM assertion that the Americas were populated by Asiatics mainly.
Mmmmm... of course, that BOM assertion has changed over the years. Just as 'generation' has changed beyond all recognition in Dubbie doctrine, so to has 'principle' changed in Mormom doctrine. Before there was evidence to show the Americas were largely populated from Asia, 'principle' meant 'leading genetic contributors'. Nowadays there is no evidence for any Semetic ancestry in any First Nation people, 'principle' means something different. How convenient! How like a cult! If what you used to say was wrong, change the meaning of the words used so you are no longer wrong!!!
P.S. Of course to the LDS non of these mean a fig since this isn't where we are expected to get our proof.
No, of course not.
Since when do leaders of a religious cult direct their members to think independently and only believe in things that have reasonable scientific evidence?
They tell you to accept it out of faith - just like every bunch of charlatans since the first shaman figured out manipulating memners of his tribe was a far easier life than suporting himself.
Double Edge
As a student of American history, let me say that the mormons weren't different in their 'status' belief of black people than any mainstream American Christian church in the 19th and early 20th century.
Correct. Almost all churches were deeply racist, with many backing the ethnic cleansing of the West with rubbish like 'Manifest Destiny' as justification.
I'd say from my reading of the LDS history, the 'flavour' of LDS that became predominant was intrinsically racist to a far, far greater depth (no priests) than many churches, and persisted in this for getting on for a decade longer than most churches dared. Other versions of LDS did not become as racist. There are definately passages in the book of Mormon that show some equality is possible;
"[the Lord] denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile". (Second Nephi 26:33).
However, it ain't all that peachy, and as you point out, is typical of the religionists of the day - catch the last word of thios quote;
"O my brethren, I fear that unless ye shall repent of your sins that their skins will be whiter than yours, when ye shall be brought with them before the throne of God. Wherefore, a commandment I give unto you, which is the word of God, that ye revile no more against them because of the darkness of their skins; neither shall ye revile against them because of their filthiness..." (Book of Jacob 3:8-9).
You ask;
Why bring something up that's 'ancient' and hasn't been a doctrine for a generation or so? That too is either ignorant, stupid or silly. my 2 cents..... continue the carnage....
1978 - 2006 is just about a generation.
Just as the mealy mouthed WTBS never apologise when they revise doctrine, even if people suffered as a result of the old doctrine, so to have the LDS never apologised for their old doctrine to those who suffered as a result of it.
If someone is claiming that their faith is the real deal, the truth, yadda-yadda, highlighting the doctrinal changes that show their 'truth' is just as variable and subject to revision as any other 'truth' (and therefore it's impossible for them to claim it is absolute truth) is obviously pertinent.
You're doing the equivalent of suggesting the revision of transplantation or vaccination policy by the WTBS is not usable in criticising them as it was too long ago.