Do we need elders?

ArgCampeon

*** Rbi8 1 Timothy 3:1-7 ***
3 That statement is faithful.
If any man is reaching out for an office of overseer, he is desirous of a fine work. 2 The overseer should therefore be irreprehensible, a husband of one wife, moderate in habits, sound in mind, orderly, hospitable, qualified to teach, 3 not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, but reasonable, not belligerent, not a lover of money, 4 a man presiding over his own household in a fine manner, having children in subjection with all seriousness; 5 (if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?) 6 not a newly converted man, for fear that he might get puffed up [with pride] and fall into the judgment passed upon the Devil. 7 Moreover, he should also have a fine testimony from people on the outside, in order that he might not fall into reproach and a snare of the Devil.

*** Rbi8 Titus 1:5-9 ***
5 For this reason I left you in Crete, that you might correct the things that were defective and might make appointments of older men in city after city, as I gave you orders; 6 if there is any man free from accusation, a husband of one wife, having believing children that were not under a charge of debauchery nor unruly. 7 For an overseer must be free from accusation as God’s steward, not self-willed, not prone to wrath, not a drunken brawler, not a smiter, not greedy of dishonest gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, sound in mind, righteous, loyal, self-controlled, 9 holding firmly to the faithful word as respects his [art of] teaching, that he may be able both to exhort by the teaching that is healthful and to reprove those who contradict.

*** Rbi8 James 5:13-15 ***
13 Is there anyone suffering evil among YOU? Let him carry on prayer. Is there anyone in good spirits? Let him sing psalms. 14 Is there anyone sick among YOU? Let him call the older men of the congregation to [him], and let them pray over him, greasing [him] with oil in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him.

Obviously, Jehovah blessed the "older men" or "elder" arrangement.

ozziepost

ArgCampeon,

The scriptures you quote I accept most heartedly but the last line of your post I do not accept. On what basis do you say "Obviously"?

Cheers,
Ozzie

"A lie which is half a truth is ever the blackest of lies"
ALFRED, LORD TENNYSON, The Grandmother

Gopher

Obviously, Jehovah blessed the "older men" or "elder" arrangement.

I'm glad you phrased that sentence in the past tense. Perhaps it is true, God did bless the older men in first century Christianity, before the man of lawlessness arose.

Ever since the first century, man's organizations have only meant one thing: A highly regulated society, rule after rule, all man-made and leading to an interference of the individual's relationship with God and Christ. The WT Society has placed themselves as the mediator in place of Christ. How often do we hear the publications or public talks say "turn to the organization", "trust the organization", "our organization right or wrong". When in reality, this 'organization' has made as many mistakes as any other man-made religion, but they add to it the arrogance of denying ever having made any errors. Even doctrinal changes are subtly hidden, as if 'we really don't change.... oh, only a little but it's increasing light'. What was true a while back becomes a lie now (such as the generation of 1914 living to see Armageddon...how long we all preached that lie!!!).

And the harshness of the judicial system, these men often favoring those they like and disfavoring those they have little use for. You could almost pick on any one in the congregation and start up a judicial inquiry if you didn't like them. How sad, how legalistic, how unloving.

How far from the ideals expressed in the scriptures you cited!

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

ArgCampeon

ozzie: Obviously because Jehovah through his spirit included it in the scriptures.

gopher: Very typical when we don't want to pay attention to scriptures. We just say that was in the past, it is different now. Well it's not. If Jehovah blessed the arrangment in the past, he approves of it in the present. You commit the error nitpicking every mistake that the faithful servants of Jehovah make.

Your comment about the judicial system is not true. It is unloving to those that love to sin, those that live immoral lives, those that love spreading lies and deceiving those in the truth. REmember Jehovah balances his love with justice.

MrMoe

I will repeat myself here - "if you believe in the elder arrangement and the bible, then why are you talking and conversing with the people on this forum? They do consider themselves apostates. If you are an elder, horray for you, because what is good for the goose should be good for the gander.

Or, am I just assuming you are an elder? Either way - you should not be here, talking with apostates is a disfellowshipping offense according to the WT - and no man is above the "law," Ray Franz of the Governing Body is a fine example. He was disfellowshipped for eating with his boss who was dis-fellowshipped."

Also, the bible says do not judge your fellow man, but the elders judge their fellow man in judicial meetings, so how is that different? How do they know the heart condition of their fellow man? Maybe they feel they are divine entities? Maybe they feel they are like the angels (aka glorious ones or celestial beings?) Don't rattle off scriptures to me, I was raised in it. Do you realize you are making yourself a hypocrite?

expatbrit

Of course we need elders!

Who the hell else is gonna wash our windows?

Expatbrit

Gopher

Arg,

Who's not paying attention to the Scripture? Jesus said love would be the hallmark of Christians, and it WAS in the first century. But now, as you admit in your reply to me, the system is "unloving toward those who love to sin". No system should be unloving, period. It goes against John 13:35.

Rather than kicking to the curb people they don't care about, there should be longer-term pastoral counselling to try to help a person (if they so desire). Quite a few who are DF'd really never wanted to leave. But they are shunted aside, and told not to... associate with JW's, not to..... associate with ex-JW's, and not to.... associate with 'bad associates' from the world. Just be a hermit, live life in a bubble of shame.....Then "we the elders" will decide when we think you are worthy of our love.

How unloving! How unlike the father of the prodigal son, who had no probation period when his son returned, but IMMEDIATELY showed love.

You, ArgCampeon and short-sighted JW's of your ilk, love legalism above the more challenging task of showing love to all, including those who have erred.

Oh and one more thing.... you said, " If Jehovah blessed an arrangement in the past, he approves of it in the present".. NOT TRUE!!!!! Or, does he still require bull sacrifices and weekly sabbath?

And don't tell me your brand of Christianity is the same as in the first century.... Why even the emphasis of the "Kingdom preaching" has shifted from Jesus to some government, supposedly established unseen to human eyes. And there are many arrangements (including harsh disfellowshipping and disassociation) which simply didn't exist in the first century. (Jesus said in Matthew 18 that if a congregation puts a person out, let him become to you AS a man of the nations.... JW's treat people FAR WORSE than those of the nations....They apply ancient Israelite principles to the DF'd and DA'd ones, symbolically stoning them in the city square.)

Read your Bible where Jesus says, "I want mercy rather than sacrifice".

GopherWhy shouldn't truth be stranger than fiction? Fiction, after all, has to make sense.
Mark Twain (1835-1910)

D wiltshire

ArgCampeon,

First I'd like to say welcome to the board.

Like it has been said before the scriptures you use were written in the 1st century and circumstances back then were much different then than today.

Any religion can use the Scriptures you just quote the same way you are using them, did you ever think of that?

So I guess the real question is is there only one organization that God calls his on earth today?

Or does God even work thru an organization?

Or is it that we each individually must prove faithful and what organization we belong to has little or no bearing on our standing before him.

I'll defend your right to say it, but it doesn't mean I beleive it.

bajarama

I think we have a pioneer with two broken legs. Who is trying to keep his hours up in the post to post ministry.

Hey, could you please turn down your mind control, your driving me crazy.

baja

RedhorseWoman

Your comment about the judicial system is not true. It is unloving to those that love to sin, those that live immoral lives, those that love spreading lies and deceiving those in the truth. REmember Jehovah balances his love with justice.

Ah, but Gopher's comment IS true. In fact, the cliques, coverups, and political maneuverings, along with the lack of love, were exactly the reasons I became inactive.

While declaring to one and all that the congregations dealt lovingly and justly with all, the reality was that those who were favored by the elders could get away with almost anything (including public drunkenness, hit-and-run accidents, drug use, soliciting of prostitutes, and public lewdness).

The reality did not fit the rhetoric.......I could no longer deal with the hypocrisy. I chose, instead, to find my spirituality outside the bounds of a disgusting, hypocritical man-made organization....i.e. the WTBTS.

Do we need elders?

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