Did They Go Too Far?

by DCs Ghost 15 Replies latest jw friends

DCs Ghost

read the following when you get a chance
i am curious to your reaction. . . .
http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0135/koerner.php
i will come back with my comments. . . .
peace
dc
willy_think

i gess to me there are 5 questions
pics. of kids being raped. is it chiled porn?
audio of kids being raped. is it chiled porn?
cartoons of kids being raped. is it chiled porn?
written storys of kids being raped. is it chiled porn?
should the photographer, the recorder, the cartoonist, or the writer in possesion of the material be exempted from the possesion laws simply because he/she is the creator of the material?
i gess my perspective is this he didn't think about chiled porn he created it. making and possesing chiled porn is illegal and the law should be enforced.
the ideas and opinions expressed in this post do not necessiarly represent those of the WTB&TS inc. or any of it's subsidiary corporations.
conflicted

That is ludicrous! I am very vociforous when it comes to my first ammendment rights! If I want to write a story or draw a picture I HAVE THAT RIGHT. As long as nobody is hurt in the process, anyone should be able to do this.
Subject matter should not be a factor. Although pedophelia disgusts me, and I wouldn't read it, the law doesn't discriminate. If a man can be sent to prison for writing a pedopheliac story, a man can be sent to prison for writing a story involving ANY other crime as well. This case sets a precident that, if not turned over by a higher court, threatens to abolish the right of any person to produce fiction or art containing anything illegal.
How many movies or television have you seen where a murder is commited - and I don't mean graphi,c bloody, slasher films. Even the writers behind 'Murder She Wrote' are guilty of inciting murder if this isn't stopped.
Imagine this:
James Cameron sentenced to 15 year prison term
His hit television show 'Dark Angel' portrays the main character causing the death of innocent people, therfore Mr. Cameron is guilty of inciting murder. And according to State vs. Dalton the written word is equal to the crime itself. Cameron will be eligible for parol in 2010.
I know this is farce, but that IS where we are headed if this isn't put to an end NOW.
Scary!
DCs Ghost

conflicted
my sentiments exactly,
peace
dc
willy_think

conflicted
If a man can be sent to prison for writing a pedopheliac story, a man can be sent to prison for writing a story involving ANY other crime as well
if a man can be sent to prison for taking pedopheliac pictures, a man can be sent to prison for taking pictures of any crime?
you see it is the story or the pictures themselves that are the crime.
How many movies or television have you seen where a murder is commited

how many snuff films have you seen. none (maybe) thay are illegal
how many beastality films? none (maybe) thay are illegal
how many chiled porn? none (maybe) thay are illeagal
but some how "murder she wrote" is still on the air
His hit television show 'Dark Angel' portrays the main character causing the death of innocent people, therfore Mr. Cameron is guilty of inciting murder. And according to State vs. Dalton the written word is equal to the crime itself. Cameron will be eligible for parol in 2010.
buy that thinking the WT could call all JWs to kill ex-JWs and be innocent of any crime.
the written word CAN be worse then the crime. if it is found that the writing constites "consperacy"
EX. two boys steal an apple-mismeaner
two boys plan stealing an apple (consperacy to commit a theft)- felony

the thing you are missing is that the crime is NOT "inciting" a crime
the the crime is posssesion of child porn.
the law as stated in the site
"any obscene material that has a minor as one of its participants or portrayed observers."
he is a pornographer
ballistic

The only place society seems to draw a line is at children. I think it should stay that way.
I was too far out... and not waving but drowning - Stevie Smith
DCs Ghost

italics following are taken from the article. . .
to the few that have posted thanks,
to those that haven't i suggest you read this because this can affect us all in the future if this mentality spreads to other realms
personal thoughts are exactly that, personal. . .IMO
example,
if i fantasize about one of my coworkers have i cheated on my girlfriend?
can my co-worker accuse me of sexual harrasment for fantasizing about her?
think about this,
think about a private thought of yours, now imagine being arrested for it,
now imagine having written about it,
that can be used as evidence for intent to act upon it, \
this is what the court said by sentencing him to 7 years
this is what happened to this kid,
he wrote down his most twisted thoughts and was sent to jail for it,
had he not written it, and only thought about it
would he still be a criminal, who would have known?
"Short of the ability to read minds, I don't know how one could come closer to punishing thought than convicting a man as a felon for the contents of his private diary,"
what i find scary is not so much the fact of what Dalton wrote but more the fact that he was prosecuted for writing it without having acted on it,
i believe this is a direct infringement on privacy,
i agree that the kid has issues and that he needs help,
but is it right to covinct someone for a thoughts written in a journal? and if so, isn't there another way to handle such a situation? some type of preventive action other than jail?
perhaps a mental institution would have been more appropriate. . .
the following are excerpts from the article for anyone who hasn't read it. . .
Dalton's parents turned the journal over to authorities earlier this summer in hopes that their son would be forced into sex-offender treatment; instead, he received a seven-year prison sentence for daring to commit his inmost thoughts to paper. He has never acted on his dark impulses, preferring instead to record his icky dreams in a secret journal.
The sad irony of Dalton's predicament is that, if placed in treatment rather than prison, he likely would have been encouraged to confront his demons in writing. As writer Joe Loya noted in a Los Angeles Times op-ed on the case, "To write out fantasies in order to avoid creating real victims is therapy, not pornography." Ohio's message to the sick is clear, and troubling: Bottle up your wicked thoughts, or risk hearing a knock on your door.
willy, my questions to you. . .
granting you that he created it,
if i write about adultery, does that make me a cheater?
if i write about torture, does it make me a sadist?
if i write about murder, does it make me a killer?
you stated that it is the story or the pictures themselves that are the crime.
if indeed that is the case, wouldn't the news be breaking the law every night?
believe me pedophiles have issues, and those that act on it are sick, but my concern here is not so much the crime but the extreme punishment for writing personal thoughts,
conflicted hit the issue right on the head with this statement
If a man can be sent to prison for writing a pedopheliac story, a man can be sent to prison for writing a story involving ANY other crime as well.
The Dalton case is groundbreaking in its criminalization of uncirculated text. Until recently, the private ownership of obscene material was constitutionally protected, provided no children were involved in its creation. In a 1969 decision, Stanley v. Georgia, the Supreme Court concluded that "the state may no more prohibit mere possession of obscene matter on the ground that it may lead to antisocial conduct than it may prohibit possession of chemistry books on the ground that they may lead to the manufacture of homemade spirits. . . . A state has no business telling a man, sitting alone in his own house, what books he may read or films he may watch." . . .
you can't criminalize people for having bad thoughts or creating material that will induce others to have bad thoughts,
again it was uncirculated,
we have a man putting his thoughts on paper for his own personal reasons, he is venting and possibly trying to get a grip on his thoughts, no crime commited yet. . .
unless it can be proven that he was planning on distributing or selling or somehow making it accessible to others, then it would be a crime,
as to what this rational exhibited by the court could lead to if not checked. . .
One potentially dicey case is that of American Beauty, in which actress Mena Suvari bares her chest while playing an underaged temptress. That Suvari was over 18 could be immaterial—the filmmaker's intent to depict a naked high schooler would be all that mattered. Even had director Sam Mendes made the movie on his bedroom Macintosh, using nothing but computer-generated figures, and shown it to no one, he might still face criminal charges. All it would take is an ambitious prosecutor hankering for publicity.
comments please,
i know there are many here who have interesting things to say on this,
peace
dc
willy_think

you stated that it is the story or the pictures themselves that are the crime.
if indeed that is the case, wouldn't the news be breaking the law every night?

YES if the news put child porn pics. on the show thay would be breaking the law. or if thay read child porn storys on the show thay would be breaking the law. even if thay didn't put the child porn on the show but keep them in the news room thay would be braking the law.
what i find scary is not so much the fact of what Dalton wrote but more the fact that he was prosecuted for writing it without having acted on it,
he was NOT prosecuted for child rape. the site is not telling you or me what he WAS prosecuted for. what were the charges he was convicted on? why are thay missing from the site?
in hopes that their son would be forced into sex-offender treatment
why if he didn't "offend" would thay hope for "sex-offender treatment"?
if his own people see the storys as a sex-offense in and of themselfs maby thay are.
willy, my questions to you. . .
granting you that he created it,
if i write about adultery, does that make me a cheater?
if i write about torture, does it make me a sadist?
if i write about murder, does it make me a killer?

no agan he was not a chiled rapest he is not guilty of inciting chiled rape he was guilty of making and possesing chiled porn.
if i write about making chiled porn i am not a pornographer.
if i make chiled porn i am a pornographer
i gess i can't make my thoughts understood, i'm sorry for that.
the ideas and opinions expressed in this post do not necessiarly represent those of the WTB&TS inc. or any of it's subsidiary corporations.
DCs Ghost

willy
he was NOT prosecuted for child rape. the site is not telling you or me what he WAS prosecuted for
he was prosecuted for possession of child pornography
based on his private personal journal,
his thoughts were considered to be child pornography,
the moment that he wrote them down he broke the law,
that is why he was prosecuted
that is what is being said in the article and that is what this debate is about
the issue is not so much the subject but rather,
if l writing down your personal thoughts could convict you of a crime,
dc
willy_think

i'm happy you got to the point at last.
he was prosecuted for possession of child pornography
based on his private personal journal,

yes!!
his thoughts were considered to be child pornography,

no!!
the moment that he wrote them down he broke the law,
that is why he was prosecuted

yes!!
that is what is being said in the article and that is what this debate is about
the issue is not so much the subject but rather,
if l writing down your personal thoughts could convict you of a crime

no writing down your personal thoughts can not convict you of a crime. unless it constitutes a confession.
writing or possesing graphic fictional STORYS of child rape IS a crime and has been for a long time.
there is no debate. unless we excuse the crime on the ground of him being the author or that the crimnial possession of child porn was for his sole use.
my point is that "i made it myself" or "i alone am viewing the material" does not excuse the possesion of the porn.
the examples you gave are of people who did not commit a crime but only wrote about a crime.
here is an example of a written crime:
dear Mr. hit man,
could you plese come over my house and kill my wife tonight as i will be playing cards at a neighbors house and will have a good aliby. i will leave 30,000 in cash under my mattress, that is your usual fee i believe. 9 to 10 pm. would be the best time. thanks for all your help.
your's truely
wannabe widower
this is a crime in it self and can be used to get a conviction.
my point is the site is intionally obscuring the crime. when the crime like the law is very clear.
the ideas and opinions expressed in this post do not necessiarly represent those of the WTB&TS inc. or any of it's subsidiary corporations.

Did They Go Too Far?

James Cameron sentenced to 15 year prison term

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