Death to the Pixies: A few questions, just for you...

by AuldSoul 35 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    Death to the Pixies: but he does lay out how the Church, when it comes to procedure, cannot necessarily support itself from scripture.

    Oh boy, do I ever agree with you there. Any organized religion is unsupportable from the Scriptures—no matter how it is "structured"—if part of the structure includes any group of people being in a relatively SUPERIOR position to another group the group has instantly leapt from Scriptural basis to human organizational structure.

    I submit the organizational structure as defined in the Bible:

    1 Corinthians 2-4; 1 Corinthians 11:3; Galatians 1-6; Ephesians 5; Hebrews 2-5

    Besides this, what else is needed? And if men are heads AS the Christ is head of the congregation then we will be alongside our wives, not over them. Just as Jesus invites his disciples under the yoke he himself bears and as he himself became "beside" his Father a master worker. (Matthew 11:28, 29; Proverbs 8:30)

    I asked you specifically to provide Scriptures to support your answers. You declined to do so. I admire your candor in admitting that there is no Scriptural basis.

    I especially applaud the direct response on question #7. That one affected me personally just recently, as my father (PO in my wife's congregation) informed her that since I am no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses I am no longer to be considered her spiritual head. I dealt with it by allowing her 2 weeks to find a Scripture to demonstrate that. She could not, despite asking my father for help. She does not mind if I pray for my family (just the two of us, for now) or study with her. She still asks me questions on Bible topics frequently.

    However, I personally know of a situation where a woman was disfellowshipped for unrepentantly doing what my wife is doing, which brings question #5 sharply into focus.

    On question #3, you mention that a requirement to confess sins was implied "given how shunning occurred" and you mention specifically "apostasizing" and Hymenaeus. You didn't include any Scripture to demonstrate the implication, and I have seen nothing despite having read the whole thing numerous times, to imply a requirement on Christians to confess to men. Hymenaeus and Philetus were very vocal in their teaching that the Christ did not come in the flesh and that the resurrection had already occurred—which is the only thing regarded so severely as "apostasy" in the entire NT.

    In answer to question #4 you wrote: "No, in the scriptural example, it is much more embarrassing and painful."

    I agree. It is also Scriptural and public whereas the current method is in total darkness and secrecy, whether the accused wishes it so or not.

    Despite what you wrote in response to question #6, the how of shunning is specifically laid out in the Bible. In detail, as a matter of fact. By Jesus himself. It is also clear—without need of inference or implication—that Jesus direction in this matter was still in effect under the Apostolic period. We have (1) a Scriptural example (as you noted) that is irrefutably clear cut and (2) a direction from Paul to Timothy that is equally clear cut.

    Since you were apparently unaware of the Scriptural direction on this point, I will provide the Scriptural proofs of the way the Bible says shunning should be handled, then I will briefly address a topic I did not mention before: reinstatement.

    Matthew 18:15-17—“Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. 17 If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector.”

    In no place does Jesus indicate that certain persons should be chosen to accompany as the "one or two more" (as in, elders). In no place does Jesus indicate that "congregation" is euphemistic for "only those who are in a leadership role" but the word indeed means the congregated or gathered people.

    1 Corinthians 5:1-13—Actually fornication is reported among YOU, and such fornication as is not even among the nations, that a wife a certain [man] has of [his] father. 2 And are YOU puffed up, and did YOU not rather mourn, in order that the man that committed this deed should be taken away from YOUR midst? 3 I for one, although absent in body but present in spirit, have certainly judged already, as if I were present, the man who has worked in such a way as this, 4 that in the name of our Lord Jesus, when YOU are gathered together, also my spirit with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5 YOU hand such a man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, in order that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord.
    6 YOUR [cause for] boasting is not fine. Do YOU not know that a little leaven ferments the whole lump? 7 Clear away the old leaven, that YOU may be a new lump, according as YOU are free from ferment. For, indeed, Christ our passover has been sacrificed. 8 Consequently let us keep the festival, not with old leaven, neither with leaven of badness and wickedness, but with unfermented cakes of sincerity and truth.
    9 In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”

    The example to which you referred. Note that the extent and brazen shamelessness of what was occuring was BEYOND even that which the nations tolerated—in Corinth, mind you, which was widely known as an extremely licentious place in a very licentious world. Then Paul makes very clear that he is not recommending cutting off association with all fornicators, ONLY with those who wish to maintain a pretense of being "called a brother". The edict not to eat with such a man is in direct context with partaking of the body and blood of Christ.

    1 Timothy 5:20—Reprove before all onlookers persons who practice sin, that the rest also may have fear.

    Please demonstrate how this instruction is ambiguous. It does not say "announce the fact that reproving occurred" does it?

    On the subject of reinstatement, we also have an unambiguous example of how it occurred.

    2 Corinthians 2:5-11—Now if anyone has caused sadness, he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent—not to be too harsh in what I say. 6 This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, 7 so that, on the contrary now, YOU should kindly forgive and comfort [him], that somehow such a man may not be swallowed up by his being overly sad. 8 Therefore I exhort YOU to confirm YOUR love for him. 9 For to this end also I write to ascertain the proof of YOU, whether YOU are obedient in all things. 10 Anything YOU kindly forgive anyone, I do too. In fact, as for me, whatever I have kindly forgiven, if I have kindly forgiven anything, it has been for YOUR sakes in Christ’s sight; 11 that we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs.

    As to the "appeals" process you mentioned, they saw no need since they actually had God's holy spirit. The Bible never makes even an implied reference to any such arrangement.

    I am curious about your thoughts regarding this issue of disfellowshipping JW style.

    One last point, on question #1 you mentioned you "believe that was held," and you failed to see the relevance of question #2. Here is the relevance: If Charles T. Russell was God's Channel of communication, of all people wouldn't HE know that? If all the corporate heads of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society comprised the Channel (at any time), shouldn't THEY, of all people, know that? And lastly, if—as is now held to be the case—ALL anointed are part of that Faithful and DIscreet Slave and always have been why didn't THEY, of all people, know that in 1919? I ask because that teaching wasn't firmed up until the early 1940s and was only hinted at during the '30s, with gradually increasing strength.

    I would say, given the extraordinary claims of the organization relative to its professed unique relationship to God, this is an extremely relevant line of questioning. I am again curious about your thoughts on this point now that I have fleshed out the relevance.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

    P.S. Your candor has earned my respect. You have been the most boldly honest JW apologist I have ever dealt with, my friend Shadow coming a close second. Given his circumstances I can cut him quite a lot of slack.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    skyman,

    Please forgive the long and referenced post. I studiously avoided red text out of consideration for you, to meet you halfway. I hope my conciliatory efforts are appreciated.

    Be mad, my friend, but get past it—okay?

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Questions 1) and 2) are the really relevant and difficult (unanswerable) questions here, imo. Even I could answer 3-7. Of course, on the matter of disfellowshipping, one could argue that "even though Paul did it, there is no reason why elders(or any other "shepherds of a flock") should do it - after all, us normal people of today are no Paul`s, we can`t be sure we are guided by the light, so to speak", but on the other hand, "disfellowshipping" has been done by churches since the beginning, the catholics excommunicated all over the place, etc. However, I do agree that disfellowshipping is wrong, just because "everyone else are doing it", this is no argument why the WTS should be allowed to do it. It`s wrong, period.

    But how "Jehovah" could pick the WTS as the "faithful and discreet slave" in 1918 (or whatever), because they had the "correct doctrines" or "most correct doctrines", when they, by todays (WTS)-standards would be considered apostates/heretics (because the doctrines were ...a million miles away from what they are today), that is really ridicolous (that is - if the doctrines of ...today, or 1918 were right in the first place, which of course, they aren`t).

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul
    It`s wrong, period.

    I disagree, Hellrider. I would not want a pedophile allowed to continue in the congregation as an acceptable member and I would want the congregants publicly warned.

    In the ONLY examples given in the Bible, the persons were actively collecting a following after a teaching that rejected Christ altogether or were engaging in conduct that went beyond even that accepted by the nations. In those circumstances, I am not so sure I disagree with disfellowshipping, but more along the lines of the Catholic "excommunication" which does not include shunning but rather relates to whether the person can partake of the sacraments, be blessed by the Church, etc.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • IMustBreakAway
    IMustBreakAway

    Death to the Pixies, why don't you come over to my house and have a beer? Lets not argue religion, tell me about your work. What's your family like? Whats your favorite color?

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider
    I disagree, Hellrider. I would not want a pedophile allowed to continue in the congregation as an acceptable member and I would want the congregants publicly warned.

    I see your point. Who would want to be in the same room as a pedophile, I wouldn`t. But on the other hand, I guess I don`t view the "congregation" in the same way as (I assume) you do. I view it as a church, nothing more, nothing less. I don`t view the "congregation" as something you would/should have to associate with more than when going to the meeting/mass or whatever. When I go to a church (like, once a year, around christmas, ha ha), I don`t really care if there are criminals there also, as long as they behave, don`t try to have a conversation with me, or come near my kid (who will be sitting right next to me, asking me "when is that guy gonna start talking about Santa Clause, like he did last christmas, lol). I guess what I`m trying to say, is that if anyone wants to hear "the gospel of our Lord", then they should be allowed to hear it. The church should be open to everyone, to come in and sit and listen to it. But the person wouldn`t have to be allowed privileges, be invited into someone home, or anything like that.

    In the ONLY examples given in the Bible, the persons were actively collecting a following after a teaching that rejected Christ altogether or were engaging in conduct that went beyond even that accepted by the nations.

    In one of the letters, I believe Paul kicks out a guy for sleeping with his mother-in-law. I don`t think sleeping with your wifes mother is such a horrible crime that one should be kicked out of the church for it. Whatever adults choose to do with eachother, that`s up to them. The wife in question, should of course immediately be allowed a divorce, no questions asked, but other than that, I don`t think it should have resulted in "disfellowshipping".

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Hellrider,

    In the account from 1 Corinthians that I posted it says the man was banging his "father's wife" which would be at best his stepmother and at worst his own mother (probably stepmother, since there was no familial connection mentioned directly with the man). Either way, she was still his "father's wife" which meant she was cheating on her husband with her stepson.

    Even today, that is some seriously Jerry Springer shizny for a reason. It is way outside the bounds of "acceptable" conduct even by today's standards. It was outside the bounds of conduct acceptable by those "of the nations" back then, too. Maybe you think that's alright as long as the two of them were cool with it, but something tells me her husband may not have been quite so open-minded.

    It was active and continuing adultery with his stepmother (at best), and Paul was simply making the point they shouldn't be calling someone who was openly doing that their brother and he shouldn't be partaking of the evening meal.

    But even with such outrageousness, Paul didn't indicate any restriction were in order after the man was corrected. He also didn't indicate that ANYONE shunned the man (in the JW sense) or that everyone even agreed with the "rebuke" he was given. Paul referred to a "rebuke by the majority" which would only make any sense at all if there was a minority who chose otherwise. I think that is the element of individual choice you were trying to get across and I agree that is how it should be.

    Disfellowshipping as practiced by JWs is just plain wrong.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Hellrider
    Hellrider

    Auld Soul:

    Ok, I read your post more thoroughly. Yes, it was his fathers wife that he was porking.

    From what I understand from your post, you believe it should be the individuals (in the congregations) own choice whether or not a person should be shunned/DFed, etc, or the majority (as in...a voting?). Ok, I see no problem with that. Better than the current arrangement of the JWs, at least, where a oh-so-spiritual elite decides on these things, and the lower ranks has to follow their commands.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Hellrider,

    I don't think there is any indication they voted on it. Democracies weren't all that popular at the time. But there are a few points that are plainly ignored in current JW policies:

    Not everyone had to choose to shun the man or risk being shunned themselves.

    Everyone who chose to shun the man knew why.

    In the 2nd letter, those who shunned him were not criticized or praised for their choice and neither were those who chose differently.

    Reinstatement carried no hint of restrictions for a period of time.

    Death to the Pixies had one sentence in his response that was not only wrong, but which demonstrates why Jehovah's Witnesses will never change this unscriptural policy. He wrote: "Nope, the 'how' of disfellowshipping is not explicitly laid out, but we know it happened."

    But, the Scriptures I posted show explicitly the "how" of disfellowshipping and the "how" nowhere indicates that the elders have the authority to make me disfellowship someone else. Further, there is no indication they have any Scriptural grounds for disfellowshipping me if I choose to continue associating with someone they announced as disfellowshipped and a very clear indication that I have every reason to make that decision for myself—as an individual.

    Elders and Circuit Overseers used the threat of Judicial action as an emotional club to try to force me to do things their way. They told me to think about how it would impact my family—it has improved the relationship with my wife ten-fold and only weakened it in that there is a chunk of stuff going on in my life she doesn't want to know about. I know WAY more about her genuine feelings about things than I ever did before. The only down-side is that a lot of people I care a lot about have chosen to stop speaking to me because an organization told them to do so. Most of them don't know why they aren't supposed to talk to me.

    I saw an old family friend from a nearby town at Sam's the other day. I called out her name. She turned and grinned when she saw me (beard and all) and gave me the warmest hug and we talked for a while before I remembered I had a rotisserie chicken I'd picked up. I didn't act disassociated. She didn't treat me as disassociated.

    What would have been different if she had heard I was no longer one of Jehovah's Witnesses? Only one thing: A corporation's policy would have dictated to her that she COULD NOT SPEAK to me and keep God's favor. Is it reasonable to believe that God's favor is dependent on the effectiveness of the rumor mill?

    This was a bit of a rambling hodgepodge, I apologize. But I am glad I got to vent that little burp of steam.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • watson
    watson

    An excellent post and discussion!! Thank you All!

    Watson

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