BODY...SOUL...SPIRIT.....THE MESSIANIC HOPE............the source

by Terry 31 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  LittleToe

  I finally start finding something to agree with Terry about and you guys start tearing him to shreds

  LOL
• 

  Terry

  Hi Terry, I liked these definitions, I would add that breath and life must be added the soul and spirit definitions

  BODY: what we use to become conscious of the the world around us.

  SOUL: what we use to become conscious of our SELF as an identity, ego and will.

  SPIRIT: what we use to become conscious of the divine: God.

  The above largely comes to us by way of Greek philosophy.

  What I failed to add to the above is that I don't accept them as being true

  Our body is ALL we have to detect what is real and draw inferences about reality. The peculiar ability of the human mind to abstract qualities and quantities and project them into being gets us in trouble because we tend to confuse the imaginary with the actual.

  We can talk about Pinnochio and Peter Pan in the same way we can discuss George Bush and Muhammed the Prophet.

  The mechanism that enables us to DISTINGUISH the abstract from the concrete is very delicate.

  Superstitious thinking and wrong definitions pushes us across that threshold and we end up delusional.

  The Body is what we use to become conscious. The brain is what we use to become rational. The imagination is what we use to become delusional.

  T.
• 

  Terry

  I finally start finding something to agree with Terry about and you guys start tearing him to shreds

  LOL

  Ain't it a sad world, Little Toe?
• 

  Pole

  Terry,
  
  Do you seriously believe in the influence of Greek philosophers as real people or are talking about cultural archetypes?
  
  And I'm not talking about the Greek influence on highly-controlled areas of codified knowledge such as Euclidean geometry, which you seem have no problems blending with the belief in the body-soul distinction and messianic myths.
  
  Dude, you have a rather mechanistic/behaviourist picture of anthropological history.
  
  I hope you can now write one more elaboration about the Greek influence on American Indian messianic prophecies ;-). And their body-spirit distinctions. These beliefs must be fatally flawed by the ramblings of Plato.
  
  Pole
• 

  Terry

  Dude, you have a rather mechanistic/behaviourist picture of anthropological history.
  
  
  I hope you can now write one more elaboration about the Greek influence on American Indian messianic prophecies ;-). And their body-spirit distinctions. These beliefs must be fatally flawed by the ramblings of Plato.

  Gee Dude,

  Ain't you never read the Book of Mormon

  Them Indians is the lost tribe of Izreel.

  T.
• 

  TopHat

  Yep! I can see the influential light now.....Bush thinks he is a reincarnation of "Alexander the Great"
• 

  Pole

  Ok, you win, Terry ;-)
  Greeks > Hebrews > Indians- it only makes perfect sense to me now.
  Pole
• 

  Terry

  Ok, you win, Terry ;-)
  
  Greeks > Hebrews > Indians- it only makes perfect sense to me now.
  
  Pole

  Here is how I really think this thing works.

  In a family, tribe or social society (primitive) people die.

  The last thing that happens is this. The dying person exhales. aHHHHHHHHHHGGGH

  Gosh!

  What just happened?

  They were alive and now they are dead!!

  Something left the body...it was like respiration.....invisible.....and now....the body is dead.

  Where did Grandma "go?"

  Gee, I guess the "real" part of Grandma was invisible like air!

  I'm not kidding; I really believe this is how the theory of a person having a "spirit" got started everywhere. The link between the word for breathing and the word for spirit is a clue.

  Now, on with my crackpot theory!

  After Grandma dies the family and friends dream. In the dream who do they see ALIVE!?

  Why none other than dear old Grandma!

  Unsophisticated people did not understand dreams. (I'm not even sure sophisticated people do!)

  People confused their dream state with everyday reality.

  The Bible is full of this "dreams have meaning" nonsense.

  By linking up a series of guesses we come up with the same theory in all nations, tribes and tongues: The real part of us is like breath; a spirit and we continue to live after death. We can receive guidance by consulting the dearly departed.

  Now, where are the Greeks in all of this?

  I'm just saying their ideas took on significance because they were backed by three things which impressed people mightily:

  1.Success in conquering the world

  2.Logic

  3.Science (really proto-science)

  4.Socratic methods

  5.Aristotles vast (seeming) comprehension of how everything works.

  This made non-Greeks envious, admiring and competitive in updating and revising their own inferior methodologies.

  That is ALL I'm really saying.

  Okay?
• 

  Pole

  Terry,
  
  ::Okay?
  
  Sure. I just wasn't sure by the way you phrased it in the first post. Your last post actually contains some points I wanted to add: we're predisposed to buy the Greek stories; it's not so much out of keeping with what our human cognition allows us to believe anyway. Having said that, however, we never know to what extent the Greek philosophers are responsible for the great variety of body-spirit dogmas which are reflected in one way or another in many, say, animistic beliefs which predated them, are we? I know their version of the story did have a great influence in European and post-European cultures, but we can't say Plato is responsible for modern beliefs in soul/body/spirit in the same way as Euclides is responsible for the traditional geometry.
  
  So looks like all I really want to achieve is water down your argument ;-). Am I succeeding?
  
  Pole
• 

  Terry

  Sure. I just wasn't sure by the way you phrased it in the first post. Your last post actually contains some points I wanted to add: we're predisposed to buy the Greek stories; it's not so much out of keeping with what our human cognition allows us to believe anyway. Having said that, however, we never know to what extent the Greek philosophers are responsible for the great variety of body-spirit dogmas which are reflected in one way or another in many, say, animistic beliefs which predated them, are we? I know their version of the story did have a great influence in European and post-European cultures, but we can't say Plato is responsible for modern beliefs in soul/body/spirit in the same way as Euclides is responsible for the traditional geometry.
  
  
  So looks like all I really want to achieve is water down your argument ;-). Am I succeeding?
  
  
  Pole

  I suppose we really need to be precise when we say we "know"about source influences; but, so much of what passes for history is less than pinpoint accuracy.

  Yet, all arguments are diluted when we frame them in terms of such accuracy; are the not?

  What works? What doesn't?

  I, personally, look at EFFECTS in history and search for candidate CAUSES.

  The change in the language of a people is a strong EFFECT. The Jews began speaking and reading and writing GREEK!

  When they were captive in Babylon the names of people and months of the year changed; but NOT their entire language. So, I view that

  as a magnitude of an effect which indicates the magnitude of the cause. But, when I look at the size of the effect on language, culture, religion, politics and mythos after Alexander the Great I have to posit an ENORMOUS CAUSE.

  When I sit down and start reading First Macabees I am struck by one thing immediately. Suddenly Alexander the Great is in my face and Greek thought, religion, influence, and pressure has washed over the Jewish community ineluctably. The writer of Macabees is telling us a story dramatically framing the issue in terms of personal heroism vis a vis __purity__of worship.

  1:11 In those days went there out of Israel wicked men, who persuaded many, saying, Let us go and make a covenant with the heathen that are round about us: for since we departed from them we have had much sorrow.

  Patriotism, religious orthodoxy and pressure from the Greek ethos are wedged into US vs THEM. The Gentile is the enemy and anybody who wants to modernize or live comfortably with new and better ways is simply evil.

  This seem so very much like young Muslim men today who are convinced from cradle to grave that anything non-Muslim is evil and must be fought tooth and nail since there is never a whisper of living in peace with Jews or Americans. Why? We are evil.

  What you oppose defines you. What you hate; you become.

  From the time of Alexander onward the Jews are defined by the (in my opinion) superiority of the Greeks.

  Let's go back to my modern day analogy of the Muslim world.

  The Muslims think of themselves as THE CHOSEN OF GOD. Their relationship with God supercedes all else.

  The Muslims look at their sworn enemy (Jews) and see them prospering, changing the desert into farmland, creating a democratic government, gaining a foothold in modernity, educating their population, thriving alongside the great Satan America and they are stunned into facing a glaring and embarassing fact: GOD ___appears__TO BE BLESSING THEIR ENEMY MORE THAN THEMSELVES!

  Muslims cannot bear to face this fact. What do they do? Accept that their own sorry state of being is pathetic and needs to change? NO!

  They go all out to WIPE OUT THE PROOF that they are living as inferiors! Holy War is declared and young men throw themselves willy-nilly into destruction as "holy warriors" all proud and gleaming with martyrdom and patriotism and religious purity.

  The Jews reacted to Greek success the way today's Muslims react to Jewish success. They definine themselves by their overwhelming destructive impulses against MODERNITY.

  IN THE CASE of today's Muslim community we see a split into those who live peaceably with the Christians and Jews and those who would rather die in battle than do so.

  So too in the days of Antiochus and the Greek rule that brought "modernity" to ancient Israel.

  Anybody who wanted to live in peace and improve conditions in Jewish society was labeled " wicked men".

  The stage was set in Judaism for all that followed as a result of this bifurcation.

  Did the Greek ethos CAUSE this?

  I leave it to you to answer that for yourself; I've said what it looks like to me.