What do you make of the Daniel Book

by lost_light06 14 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • lost_light06
    lost_light06

    I went to my first bookstudy in at least 4 weeks the other night. We were studying the Daniel Book. This particular study had to do with the “King of the North and the King of the South” in our modern day. According to this book the King of the North was Communist Russia and it’s “women” (smaller communist nations: Cuba, Vietnam, Korea, etc.) The King of the South was and still is the “Anglo American dual Power: USA & Britain) I was amazed at the leaps in logic and outright assumptions the book states on the identities of these two “Kings”. I guess in times past I just assumed the GB knew what they were talking about. It seemed to me the WTS basically looks at Daniel and makes past history fit into his prophecies. It almost sounds logical! What are your takes on this book and the WTS’s application of it in our modern day? I have never studied the Bible book of Daniel without the “aid” of this book and it’s difficult for me to discount the WTS take on it as I am, as I say, in my “infancy of learning the truth about “the truth””.

    On a side note, I was asked to give the opening prayer for the book study. As I began I wanted to focus on asking God to help us learn from his word the Bible alone. However, my trusty JW training kicked in about half way and I found myself asking God to help us get all we can out of the “spiritual food” we are provided by the FDS. I about puked, and I’m surprised God didn’t strike me dead at that moment. Makes me sick how indoctrinated I really am.

  • drew sagan
    drew sagan

    Take a look into most Bible commentaries and you will see much of the same information. Most of the interpretation of the book of daniel has been accepted for hundreds of years. Most interpreters agree on the historical figures in the book up untill the times of the Romans, from there people have many differant ideas what the book means. Some say it ended with Rome, some say that it contniues. My point is that their Daniel book is not impressive as it seems, much of the information can be found in agreement with people who came along way before the Watchtower. They fuse some of what has allready been accepted with their own strange ideas about how God fullfills his promises in the organization. In the end, looking at the material in the book that has obviously come from the WTS and not other sources you will find all kinds of looney information (ex. 1919). Don't be impressed, they didn't think it all up.

  • AK - Jeff
    AK - Jeff
    What do you make of the Daniel Book?

    Kindling would be good!

    Jeff

  • Leolaia
    Leolaia

    The Society's interpretations of Daniel, like their eisegesis of Revelation in the Revelation Climax book, is consistently arbitrary and self-serving. It is also at variance from the assessment of the book by nearly all scholars, who recognize its many allusions to the Maccabean crisis of 168-164 BC. The Society arbitrarily takes these clear references to events in the second century BC and thrusts them thousands of years into the future to "our day". For a very easy overview of what the book of Daniel is about, see the following article:

    http://www.2think.org/hundredsheep/bible/timeoftheend.shtml

    I discussed this matter recently in the "ships of Kittim" thread (http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/107828/1.ashx). Chapter 11 of Daniel tells in exquisite detail the history of the Seleucid and Lagid dynasties of Syria and Egypt from 333 BC to about 168/7 BC, starting with Alexander the Great and ending with Antiochus IV Epiphanes. Most space is devoted to Antiochus III (11:20-30) and Antiochus IV (11:21-45). Thus, the author relates the Battle of Raphia (v. 11), Antiochus III's weakness among his subjects at home (v. 12), his attack on Ptolemy V Epiphanes (v. 13), the seige of Gaza (v. 15), the Egyptian counter-offensive that followed (v. 15-16), his marriage to Cleopatra, daughter of Ptolemy V, in 194 BC (v. 17), his attacks on colonies in Asia Minor and the Aegean (v. 18a), his defeat by Magnesia consul Lucius Cornelius Scipio in 190 BC (v. 18b), his death at Elymais in 187 BC (v. 19), and the efforts by his successor Seleucus IV Philopator to secure the treasures of the Jerusalem Temple through Helidorus and the man Helidorus later had murdered (v. 20). The detail is even more exquisite when we come finally to the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes IV (175-164 BC), the central figure of the second half of Daniel ("the little horn" of ch. 7-8, the "prince who is to come" in ch. 9, and the "wretch" of ch. 11). Thus the accession of Antiochus IV Epiphanes in 175 BC is mentioned in 11:21, followed by the assassination of high priest Onias III in 171 BC (cf. 9:26, 1 Enoch 90:8). Then Antiochus' victorious invasion of Egypt in November 170 BC is related in v. 25 (cf. 1 Maccabees 1:16-19, 2 Maccabees 5:1), and the demise of Ptolemy VI Philopator's advisors Eulaeus and Lenaeus in v. 26. Then Antiochus went to the capital Memphis to negotiate with Philopator (v. 27) but tricked Philopator's nephew as to his intentions. Then Antiochus left a garrison in Pelusium and on his way home plundered the Jerusalem Temple before returning to Syria (v. 28; cf. 1 Maccabees 1:21-28). Then in 168 BC Antiochus made a second expedition against Egypt (v. 29; cf. 2 Maccabees 5:1), but this time the Romans prevent Antiochus from waging war against Egypt (v. 30; cf. Polybius 29.27, Josephus, Wars of the Jews 1.1.4). After the defeated Antiochus returned to Syria, he attacked Judea and made an alliance with Hellenizers who "forsake the holy covenant" (v. 30). His forces were led by the myarch Apollonius, who attacked and razed Jerusalem in the fall of 168 BC and in December they installed a heathen altar in the Temple (v. 31; cf. 1 Maccabees 1:29-54, 2 Maccabees 5:24-26, 6:1-11), and those who maintain Jewish religious practices were persecuted (v. 32-35), tho the military successes of Judus Maccabaeus brought some relief (v. 34). If you check most commentaries of Daniel, you will find much the same thing.

    Thus, most commentaries will say that the "ships of Kittim" in 11:30 are the Roman allies of Egypt (who also were allied with Judas Maccabaeus and his guerilla army) who prevented King Antiochus IV Epiphanes from carrying out his second Egyptian campaign in 168 BC. Specifically, it refers to Popilius Laenas, the Roman envoy, who handed Antiochus a senatus consultum as the Syrian king attempted to besiege Alexandria, and Laenas also humiliated Antiochus by marking a circle in the sand around the king and demanded to have an answer before Antiochus left the circle (cf. Polybius 29.27, Diodorus Siculus 31.2; Livy 45.12.3-6). After this defeat, the king sent his mysarch Apollonius to Jerusalem and devestated the city as related in 1 Maccabees 1:29-40, and this is what is discussed in the second half of Daniel 11:30. By the second century BC (when Daniel was written), Kittim had become the general Jewish name for the Romans. The mid-second century AD translator of the Daniel into Greek thus renders the Hebrew "Kittim" as Romaioi "Romans" (Daniel 11:30 LXX), and the Latin Vulgate renders it as Romani. There is also, of course, the Commentary on Habakkuk (1QpHab) in the Dead Sea Scrolls that repeatedly refers to the Romans as "Kittim", and the Targums of Numbers 24:24 also identify them with the Romans (which the author of Hebrew Daniel seems to be doing as well, viewing that oracle as being fulfilled in Antiochus IV). That it no longer meant just "Cyprus" is indicated by Josephus (Antiquities 1.6.1) who claims that the Jews use the term "for all islands and most maritime countries" in the Mediterranean, including Italy but also Macedonia (as it is in 1 Maccabees 1:1).

    The Society however claims that the "ships of Kittim" refer not to second-century BC Romans but to twentieth-century AD naval vessels during World War I!:

    ***dp chap. 15 p. 264 The Rival Kings Enter the 20th Century ***

    In Daniel’s time Kittim was Cyprus. Early in the first world war, Cyprus was annexed by Britain. Moreover, according to The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, the name Kittim "is extended to include the W[est] in general, but esp[ecially] the seafaring W[est]." The New International Version renders the expression "ships of Kittim" as "ships of the western coastlands." During the first world war, the ships of Kittim proved to be mainly the ships of Britain, lying off the western coast of Europe.

    Here is what the Society is doing here: They want to stretch Daniel 11 into the twentith century and thus arbitrarily take the whole section that applies to Antiochus IV Epiphanes and apply it to kings throughout history that came AFTER him. Note in particular how they follow Seleucid history for most of ch. 11 and agree that v. 13-19 refers to Antiochus III, but then instead of continuing with Seleucid history and recognizing that v. 21-39 OBVIOUSLY refers to Antiochus IV, they lump Antiochus IV somehow into the end of v. 13-19 and suddenly launch forth outside of Seleucid history, taking v. 20 to refer to Tiberius Caesar, v. 21-24 to refer to the Roman Empire, v. 25-26 to refer to the break down of the Roman Empire and Queen Zenoba (WTF?), and then the rest of the chapter zips centuries ahead to the twentieth century. The funny thing about all of this is that the bits they do talk about Antiochus IV embarrassingly correspond to the very sections of the vision that the Society wants to apply to the twentieth century. So for instance, concerning Antiochus IV (which the Society is unable to find a clear reference to him in the prophecy), they write:

    ***dp chap. 14 p. 231 The Two Kings Change Identities ***

    SYRIAN monarch Antiochus IV invades Egypt and crowns himself its king. At the request of Egyptian King Ptolemy VI, Rome sends Ambassador Caius Popilius Laenas to Egypt. He has with him an impressive fleet and orders from the Roman Senate that Antiochus IV renounce his kingship of Egypt and withdraw from the country. At Eleusis, a suburb of Alexandria, the Syrian king and the Roman ambassador come face-to-face. Antiochus IV requests time for consultation with his advisers, but Laenas draws a circle around the king and tells him to answer before stepping across the line. Humiliated, Antiochus IV complies with Roman demands and returns to Syria in 168 B.C.E. Thus ends the confrontation between the Syrian king of the north and the Egyptian king of the south.

    Now doesn't that sound A LOT like what is described in Daniel 11:29-30? "In due time he will make his way southwards again but this time the outcome will not be as before. The ships of Kittim will oppose him, and he will be intimidated. He will retire and take furious action against the holy covenant..." But noooooo! This verse cannot refer to Antiochus IV, it has to refer to British ships in WWI!! Same thing applies to Antiochus IV's attack on the Temple, razing of Jerusalem, and installation of the Abomination of Desolation: "On the fifteenth day of Chislev in the year one hundred and forty-five [i.e. 167 BC] the king erected the abomination of desolation above the altar" (1 Maccabees 1:54). The Society also describes this event in the Daniel book, but fails to match it with any corresponding verse in Daniel 11:

    ***dp chap. 13 p. 227 Two Kings in Conflict ***

    The new king of the north, Antiochus IV, sought to show himself mightier than God by trying to eradicate Jehovah’s arrangement of worship. Defying Jehovah, he dedicated Jerusalem’s temple to Zeus, or Jupiter. In December 167 B.C.E., a pagan altar was erected on top of the great altar in the temple courtyard where a daily burnt offering had been made to Jehovah. Ten days later, a sacrifice to Zeus was offered on the pagan altar. This desecration led to a Jewish uprising under the Maccabees.

    This pagan altar was called "the abomination of desolation" by the Maccabees. This event is clearly described in 11:31: "Forces of his will come and profane the sanctuary citadel; they will abolish the perpetual sacrifice and install the abomination of desolation there". But the Society cannot have this refer to such a historical event (which Josephus regarded as a fulfillment of this prophecy). Nooooo... it has to refer to the United Nations established after WWII!! LOL!!

    If anyone is interested in what this chapter is really about, just pick up just about any good Bible commentary on Daniel (cf. the ones by Collins, Montgomery, Charles, Gowan, Goldingay, Hartman & DiLella, Porteous, Lacocque, etc.), and see for yourself what a travesty the Society's Daniel book is (tho this should be obvious already ).

  • lost_light06
    lost_light06

    WOW! Thanks alot Leolaia! I have always felt that there was something fishy with the WTS interpretation of Daniel, it just never quite sounded right. Regarding them thrusting the prophecies into the 20th century, it bothers me how they skip over centuries of world history without much mention to arrive into the 20th century. I'm sure if you looked at every military conquest from the 3rd century up to the 19th century you could find many military and political situations that could be made to fit the Daniel prophecies. Very self serving.

  • upside/down
    upside/down

    "Oh I could make a hat...or a broach..."- Airplane

    u/d(of the likes the kindling idea best class)

  • cosmic
    cosmic

    I'm sort of new here, and I have to confess, I've been what you call "lurking" for some time, but this particular post got me interested. Leolaia, I'm overwhelmed by your answer (and the one that is linked to in your answer as well) but it made me think a bit. It seems (and I say seems because I am by no means a definitive historian) that your entire argument (and most of the other arguments mentioned) seem to be based upon the assertion(?) (fact?) that Daniel was actually written in the 2nd Century BC rather than the 6th century. The only source for the 6th century date seems to be the book itself, and then only by the implication of timings mentioned in the writting; whereas, the 2nd century date (as far as I could find out in my short research) was mostly based upon a rather unilateral decision that someone being able to guess events with such accuracy, as the book purports to do, is simply impossible. Therefore, the book had to have been written in retospect but masquerades as prophecy. Could be, I don't know, I wasn't there. But, if the book was actually written in the 2nd century, then it is a fraud, that is, kaka, bullshit, and can mean anything at all. Your explanation of Chapter 11 being about Antiochus IV and Selucidian history could just as easily be a discussion about MickeyMouseus I from Disneylandium. I'm curious, however, why, in your obvously more learned opinion, would a 2nd centiry BC fraudist choose that particular time in Jewish history about which to write all of that bullshit? I'm having a hard time understanding what the purpose of such a book would be?

    As far as the question of the thread, I don't. To me, it's like a movie teaser, just enough content presented in the most vague terms, all designed to make you fill in the gaps and therefore believe that it's really meaningful. But, after you buy your ticket and popcorn, the movie turns out to be just another load of shite.

  • MinisterAmos
    MinisterAmos

    That crap pile is one of the reasons I stopped going to book study.

    I almost broke out laughing when they began to SERIOUSLY discuss the statue near the beginning.

  • Frannie Banannie
    Frannie Banannie

    I think Daniel had too much peyote.

  • purplesofa
    purplesofa

    My book study conductor came by Sunday

    I have not been to one study this time of the Daniel book

    He said we are on our last study this week of D book

    I said GREAT!

    he looked at me.........

    I said I did not like it the first time around.........

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