Commentary

by Seven 51 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  AhHah

  TR,

  That could explain the Great Pyramid in Egypt then, right? When they left in their spaceship, they inspired the belief in Ra, the Sun God, who was said to have fathered the Pharaohs. Wait a minute! That sounds just like the storyline from the movie Stargate. Hey, who's to say?

  I am kidding a little, but the truth is, we just don't know for sure because we can't prove that theory is wrong, any more than we can prove that the Genesis story of creation is true. At some point, faith comes into the picture for unconditional belief.

  The source of all the energy present in the universe remains an unanswered question from a purely theoretical perspective. Whether the source was an intelligent personage, and whether all was directly and independently created by the Source or whether the Source put the intelligence into the process, we really don't know. Many of the world's best scientific minds see evidence of evolution, even though some of them profess belief in a Source or God.

  Since humans do not currently possess the knowledge and ability to create new life forms (we only procreate), some find a belief in a superior, intelligent creator to be more plausible than speculations, such as your post.

  However, ancient civilizations believed that gods were responsible for natural phenomena that we now understand and take for granted. Most of our scientific knowledge is just a few hundred years old, and much is younger. In a few hundred more years, is it possible that we will unravel many mysteries of life and creation that are currently only discussed in the context of science fiction? If that happens, will we be less inclined to ascribe what we then more fully understand, to the direct intervention of a superior intelligence?

  Will we ever unravel the mystery of the original Cause without direct communication from a supernatural source?

  Why do all life forms that we can directly observe, eventually "die", or experience a transformation of energy? Does that imply a flaw in the process, or is what we perceive as an end or death, simply a natural process of transformation that has always existed and always will?

  Does the fact that we are self-aware (sentient) imply that we are of a different nature or process from all other life forms that we have directly observed? Does this in itself create a valid argument that we have a separate spiritual existence that is not limited to our physical body?

  Will that which we now perceive as spiritual and not bound by our physical nature eventually be proven as such and accepted as readily as our physical observations? Will we finally all develop an ability to be in direct communication with a spiritual dimension and spiritual personages, as some now claim to do?

  btw, did anyone see the movie "Contact" with Jodie Foster? What did you think of it?

  Edited by - AhHah on 20 October 2000 21:43:23

  Edited by - AhHah on 20 October 2000 22:1:48
• 

  MDS

  Frenchy:

  Do you really want name, rank, serial number ...? Are you DEMANDING such personal information be revealed to all on this board, at this time?

  Demanding it...

  This is said not to offend you in any way, but...listen, Frenchy, this one must reveal himself, when he is perfectly willing to do so. Its "his" decision, when to do so. Understandably, the only Personage he takes direction and advice from is God. Other than that, he makes his moves on a completely "voluntary" basis. Done, when its his "will" in the matter.

  Think, Frenchy, think... is it really that important, though? To know the person's name here we speak of?

  He is only a "man," only a man, nothing more.

  Really, a person can make such a claim... to represent Jehovah, but what really proves it?

  Correct/accurate Interpretation of scripture/prophecy thus leading to correct predictions for the future...correct predictions. Able to "guide" people into "ALL TRUTH."

  These are the "credentials," the qualifications cast upon such a person...based upon John 16:13.

  But, all up until now, so far...its just been talk, that's all we've done, is talk, talk,... words...no real proof presented.

  Of course, before any sane person, anyone today, will take another person's claim to such an "assignment" from God...much proof will need to be shown...much proof.

  It is going to take some time, for these things to take place. Serious events will have to take place to "get the ball rolling." Things like...like real WAR! Earthwide War. -- Daniel 10:1; Matt. 24:7; Rev. 6:4

  "BJC2012" who commented above, and myself [MDS] are of the same "school of thought," but not the same person.

  You said you had "questions," and I decided to provide a few "answers," to your questions. I cited a number of scriptures to give support to my statements made here and above.

  I decided to introduce you to this new thought. Introduce you...to the thought.

  Why not take a closer look at Isa. 49:1-6. Verse 6 gives you the scope of this person's "ministry," a world-wide one. Also, note particularly, verse 4 of this same chapter. Something interesting there too, something very revealing about the person, that is so assigned by God for this role and ministry.

  As for revealing more about the person, himself...its not important now... its not important and the person's name is not important, just who he is... in time, all will get a chance to know that information, in time. That is, before Isaiah 49:1-6 is completely fulfilled in our day.

  Take Care,

  MDS

  Edited by - MDS on 20 October 2000 23:26:31
• 

  Frenchy

  MDS:
  I am not making any demands at all. You brought it up and I’m merely asking who this person is. Now are you going to put up or shut up? I think that is a reasonable response, don’t you?

  Think, is it really that important? To know the person's name here we speak of? He is only a "man," only a man, nothing more.

  
  Yes, I think it is extremely important to know the identity of the only person on earth who is authorized by God to speak for Him. Your statement that “he is only a ‘man’…nothing more” is difficult to accept in light of the claims that you have made concerning this one.
  

  Before sane person, anyone today, will take another person's claim to such an "assignment" from God...much proof will need to be shown...much proof.

  Yes, I believe I have said as much.
  

  It is going to take some time, for these things to take place

  Is this your way of telling me that for now there is no proof? That for the time being this representative of God has no credentials?

  You said you had "questions," and I decided to provide a few "answers," to your questions. I cited a number of scriptures to give support to my statements made here and above

  I’m sorry but I’ve seen no answers yet, no name as of this post.

  Why not take a closer look at Isa. 49:1-6 . Verse 6 gives you the scope of this person's "ministry," a whole-wide one.

  I looked again and I still don’t know who this person you’re talking about is. Does he have a name? If this person is speaking for God why is his identity being kept a secret? Why talk about someone you can’t even reveal?

  As for revealing more about the person, himself...its not important now... its not important and the person's name is not important, just who he is... in time, all will get a chance to know that information, in time.

  If that person is what you say he is then it is very important to know his identity. As far as getting to know ‘in time’ well, that’s what prophets are really for…to let you know before time. In time all issues are going to be resolved. In time all knowledge will become complete. In time I will be dead.
  I told you at the very beginning that I was interested in honesty and forthrightness, not this childish guessing game. You, sir, have not lived up to your part of this deal. I’m tired of all the double talk and half truths.

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  Frenchy

  Tom and AhHah:
  Sometime in the near future I am going to post a thread which will completely clear up all this fuss about where we come from and what the hell is going on... Just hang in there until I have time to type it up....
  Of course, for the life of me, I don't know what there will be left for us to talk about after that! [8>]

  -Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
• 

  AhHah

  Hey MDS!

  You have so far ignored my response to your post. Was it something I said? I certainly hope so!

  Do you have no more convincing New Testamant scriptural basis for the existence of your new prophet than John 16:12-15? What makes you think that "the Spirit of truth" spoken of there is a human? Compare those verses also with their context in John 16:7 and also John 14:16,17,25,26. These words of Christ are generally understood to refer to the Holy Spirit. Depending on your understanding, the holy spirit is either God's power or part of God's very being. However, I have never seen any theological reference ascribe Christ's words there to refer to some human. Can you provide such a reference?

  Why are you describing a prophet whose identity you choose to keep a closely guarded secret? Does this prophet exist yet? Has this prophet only revealed himself/herself to you? If this prophet had already proven himself as such, you would not need to promote him/her would you?
• 

  MDS

  Ah Hah:

  ...Compare those verses also with their context in John 16:7 and also John 14:16,17,25,26. These words of Christ are generally understood to refer to the Holy Spirit. Depending on your understanding, the holy spirit is either God's power or part of God's very being

  .

  Yes, I am aware of the verses you quoted above...and they do apply to God's Holy Spirit, I agree. But not a part of God's very being. (Of course, you are welcome to BELIEVE what ever viewpoint you wish to hold. I simply won't debate this...I haven't the time.)

  But I'll say for now, that I understand these verses, to refer to God's Active Force, or God's Holy Spirit, the "spirit of the truth."

  However, consider this:

  Proverbs 8:22-31 discusses "wisdom," as a "masterworker," who was "produced by Jehovah...earlier than the earth." It discusses "wisdom" that "came to be beside" God, and that "came to be the one that He [God] became especially fond of..."

  Wisdom is even said to have been "glad before Him," "day by day." And that this "wisdom" also was especially "fond of the sons of men," upon earth." -- Proverbs 8:22-31

  Could this verse be describing something, someone beyond, the quality itself of "Wisdom," Do you think?
  
  Many believe this to be so...many believe this to be referring to Jesus, PERSONIFIED AS WISDOM, personified as a "quality," a "quality," here, in these verses. Though, the verses do not come out and say so point blank. But it is strongly inferred here, as many believe.

  So, in this instance, many, feel these verses are pictorial of the pre-human existence of Jesus Christ, God's Son.

  Could this be so?

  What do you say?

  Also, at Isaiah 14;12-20 "Lucifer", the "Shinning One", the one who wants "make himself resemble the Most High God" and place his "throne in the heavens above," -- still is referred to and commonly thought to be described in these verses, as an earthly "dynasty of kings," earthly kings, and not Satan himself, in scripture. But, on the other hand, many also see this biblical passage, to show a very close correlation between the mindset and activity of Satan, himself... a close correlation then, between the two, Satan and the earthly kings... could it be somehow prophetic of the two?

  Could both ideals, concepts be true, in essence?

  The same with Ezekiel 28:12-17. Here, the Bible speaks of the "anointed cherub" of God, "beautiful" in appearance, who was in the "garden of God," but who later "became haughty." Some say this refers (as verse 12 clearly alludes to) the "king of Tyre," but still, others say these verses are clearly pictorial of Satan too. Is it possible, both viewpoints could be true?

  Could we be dealing with the same type of situation in John 16th chapter... could we?

  Could the passage clearly refer to God's "holy spirit," His active force, but also, could it be, pictorial of someone else, someone's personal "activity" on earth? Someone's ministry? A Human's Activity?

  For instance, I noticed, in your list of scriptures dealing with John the 16th chapter, you SKIPPED verse 15.

  Why not discuss this one.

  It says:

  "That one [Spirit of Truth] will glorify me [Jesus], because he will RECEIVE FROM IS MINE and will declare it to you."

  Question: How does the Holy Spirit of God, God's Active Force, "RECEIVE FROM WHAT IS MINE [that which belongs to Jesus]"?

  In fact, how does the Holy Spirit "Receive" ANYTHING FROM JESUS?

  How does this take place, if this verse applies EXCLUSIVELY and TOTALLY to God's Active Spirit, alone?

  Again, How Does God's Active Force "receive" anything from Jesus, God's Son?

  Any thoughts?

  MDS
• 

  AhHah

  Could the passage clearly refer to God's "holy spirit," His active force, but also, could it be, pictorial of someone else, someone's personal "activity" on earth? Someone's ministry? A Human's Activity?

  For instance, I noticed, in your list of scriptures dealing with John the 16th chapter, you SKIPPED verse 15 .

  Why not discuss this one.

  It says:

  "That one [Spirit of Truth] will glorify me [Jesus], because he will RECEIVE FROM IS MINE and will declare it to you."

  Question: How does the Holy Spirit of God, God's Active Force, "RECEIVE FROM WHAT IS MINE [that which belongs to Jesus]"?

  In fact, how does the Holy Spirit "Receive" ANYTHING FROM JESUS ?

  How does this take place, if this verse applies EXCLUSIVELY and TOTALLY to God's Active Spirit, alone?

  Again, How Does God's Active Force "receive" anything from Jesus, God's Son?

  Any thoughts?

  If you look at my post again you will see that I also referenced John 16:15 as part of the context. You might find Christ's words as quoted in the next chapter at John 17:6-10 shed some light on your questions as to what he meant at John 16:15. There in his prayer to the Father on behalf of his disciples, he states "for the words that you gave to me I have given to them". There, the Christian pattern is revealed. The Father reveals to the Son, the Son reveals to the human disciples, with NO HUMAN MEDIATOR between the Father and the Son while he was on the earth. In chapter 16, he explained that after he had left the earth, the Holy Spirit of God would come into the picture, with no reference to a HUMAN.

  Since most do not question the personage of the Father and the Son, most have no trouble understanding Christ's words in chapter 17. Most Christians also do not question the personage of the Holy Spirit, which you reject and choose not to debate. So, on your premise that the Holy Spirit is NOT a person, you would have us believe that Christ might instead be refering to some future HUMAN, although he does not say so.

  Anything that cannot be proven otherwise is theoretically possible, but is it likely based on the context and what was said? More importantly, would not Christ have made it more clear to his future disciples to expect to follow another HUMAN, if that was his intention? Especially in view of his warnings about being misled by false prophets coming in his name?

  I am not arguing for (or against) a belief in the Holy Spirit as a personage or part of the Holy Trinity, as most Christians would, for understanding John 16:15. However, in view of the context and the clear references to the Holy Spirit, which is nowhere else in the Bible (to my knowledge) personified by a HUMAN or vice-versa, then I would NOT be inclined to accept your premise that Christ was HINTING that he MIGHT just use a HUMAN for something as important as future spiritual revelations to his disciples.

  And, as I mentioned before, would not an understanding of something this important have been previously argued and commented upon in some theological reference if there were any reasonable credence to be given it? Can you provide any other reference whatsoever in defense of your premise? Or, has Christ spoken to you about this matter personally?

  I'll ask you again straight out -- do you claim to be this prophet of whom you speak or know his identity? If so, what are your qualifications to speak for God? I would think that Almighty God could be a little more convincing, wouldn't you?

  Edited by - AhHah on 21 October 2000 1:56:42

  Edited by - AhHah on 21 October 2000 2:17:29
• 

  Zep

  btw, did anyone see the movie "Contact" with Jodie Foster? What did you think of it?

  Yeah, it was kinda neat. I thought it was going to be complete BS, but it was good in the end!

  The bible is inexplicable to me. I just take the wise bits like: do to others etc, and just forget the rest. I give up!
• 

  TR

  AhHah,

  What I posted was a tad tongue-in-cheek, but what the hey? I've been interested in reading Sitchin's books lately. I just finished "Genesis Revisited" where I pulled some of those rather unorthodox ideas from. Very interesting concepts he presents. There's a series of books he wrote called the "Earth Chronicles". I've yet to read them, but they sound fascinating. A different way to look at creation to say the least.

  Tom
• 

  TR

  MDS,

  What do the initials stand for this time? I know you used to go by "thebittertruth" among others. Are you trying to get us interested in buying "The Report"? You talked about amazing special knowledge before, a few months ago on this forum, dangling a special knowledge carrot in front of us. I'd just like to know if and/or when you will spit out what you really want to tell us, if anything.

  Tom

  Edited by - TR on 21 October 2000 3:39:3