Is Jesus Mediator for the Great Crowd's prayers?

by jwfacts 15 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  jwfacts

  uninformed, the WTS claims the new covenant does not apply to any but the 144000, not by any biblical support, but purely because scriptural references to those of the new covenant show they gain the holy spirit and will be in heaven. As the WTS says only 144000 receive holy spirit and will be in heaven they have no alternative but to say the new covenant only applies to them, and hence the twisted obscure reasoning that results.

  For instance look at the line of reasoning from w89. Basically it says "this is what we believe, therefore this is what it must mean, so now we will force the scriptures to make it so". Then further down it basically says that "although the scripture sounds like it means something else we are sure Timothy would have understood it the same way we do now."

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  w89 8/15 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***

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  Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the "mediator" who "gave himself a corresponding ransom for all"?

  ... To grasp what Paul is saying, we must first appreciate that the Bible sets out two destinies for faithful humans: (1) perfect life on a restored earthly paradise and (2) life in heaven for Christ’s "little flock," numbering 144,000. (Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:10; 14:1-3) Christendom teaches that all good people go to heaven, which unscriptural position has colored the general view, so that Jesus is considered a go-between for all such people. What, though, does the Bible indicate?

  ... This should help us to understand 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Here the reference to "mediator" was made after the five other occurrences of the word in letters written earlier. Hence, Timothy would have understood Jesus’ mediatorship to be His legal role connected with the new covenant. The Pastoral Epistles, by Dibelius and Conzelmann, acknowledges that at 1 Timothy 2:5 ‘the term "mediator" has a legal significance,’ and "although in this passage, in contrast to Heb 8:6, the [covenant] is not mentioned, one must nevertheless presuppose the meaning ‘mediator of the covenant,’ as the context shows." Professor Oepke observes that 1 Timothy 2:5 presents Jesus as "the attorney and negotiator."

  However reading the NT and it is obvious the new convenant did not apply to this limited number.

  The 1991 watchtower makes it quite obvious that the GC are not mediatored by Jesus but do get him as high Priest.

  Watchtower 1991 2/15 pp. 17-18

  8 Hence, the ransom sacrifice is fundamental to the new covenant, of which Jesus is the Mediator. Paul wrote: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.” (1 Timothy 2:5, 6) Those words especially apply to the 144,000, with whom the new covenant is made.

  9 When God made a covenant with fleshly

  Gathering the Things on Earth

  10 Is it only anointed Christians who can experience a release by ransom, the forgiveness of their sins? No, God is reconciling to himself all other things by making peace through the blood shed on the torture stake, as Colossians 1:14, 20 indicates. This involves the things in the heavens (the 144,000) as well as the things upon the earth. …

  11 Nevertheless, in a preliminary way, the great crowd have already “washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Revelation 7:14) Christ does not act as Mediator of the new covenant toward them, yet they benefit from this covenant through the work of God’s Kingdom. Christ still acts toward them, however, as High Priest, through whom Jehovah can and does apply the ransom to the extent of their now being declared righteous as God’s friends.”

  With the Israelites the covenant applied to all Israelites, not just the priests. Yet the WTS claims that only the 144000 priests can be part of the covenant and part of spiritual Israel. To correspond to the OT example it seems to make more sense if all who accept Jesus are part of the covenant and have Jesus as their mediator, and then the 144k are the kings and priests of that covenant.

  As (Galatians 3:20-22) says . . ".Now there is no mediator where only one person is concerned, but God is only one. 21 Is the Law, therefore, against the promises of God? May that never happen! For if a law had been given that was able to give life, righteousness would actually have been by means of law. 22 But the Scripture delivered up all things together to the custody of sin, that the promise resulting from faith toward Jesus Christ might be given to those exercising faith."

  It indicates that the Mediator is for all who excercise faith in Jesus, not just the priestly class. Does that make sense or have I missed something?
• 

  GodisRight

  The 144,000 and the great crowd are one and the same.
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  heathen

  I think the problem with the WTBTS dogma is that they tell the GC that they will not inherit the kingdom of the heavens but only paradise earth and that's only after they spend the entire millenial reign cleaning it up . I'm sure that appeals to all their janitor class but it's not what the bible is saying . Daniel 12 and Revelation both show a great crowd that escapes a tribulation and preserve themselves alive . Most religionists believe there is a rapture but they don't explain where people are actually going . The kingdom of the heavens is the city of new jerusalem described in Revelation and it lands on earth just as it was written that jesus would return the same way he left and it is more or less the noahs ark . That's where they spend the millenial reign . IMO
• 

  lostlantern

  1

  0 Is it only anointed Christians who can experience a release by ransom, the forgiveness of their sins? No, God is reconciling to himself all other things by making peace through the blood shed on the torture stake, as Colossians 1:14, 20 indicates. This involves the things in the heavens (the 144,000) as well as the things upon the earth

  I have been having a real problem wrapping my head around this issue. I guess it never dawned on me what our actual belief was as JW's. If Jesus wasn't our Mediator why do we go to memorial if it isn't meant for us? Does his sacrifice apply to the great crowd, or is his sacrifice good for the anointed only? Can the great crowd only reach forgiveness through Jesus sacrifice on the coat tails of the anointed? Just what exactly does it mean to have Jesus as our mediator and how does that affect us differently from the way we are taught? I was always told to "pray through Jesus name", is there more than that? This issue has upset me and it has left me feeling lost. I don't know where this leaves me.
• 

  heathen

  Good questions there lostlantern .

  If Jesus wasn't our Mediator why do we go to memorial if it isn't meant for us? ; Does his sacrifice apply to the great crowd, or is his sacrifice good for the anointed only?&

  They invented the observer class for this occasion . I guess since they outright can't deny you the opportunity at celebrating they go ahead and invite everybody.

  Does his sacrifice apply to the great crowd, or is his sacrifice good for the anointed only?&

  of course his sacrifice applies to everybody but apparently the GC only washes their robes in the blood of christ . Rev 7:14

  Can the great crowd only reach forgiveness through Jesus sacrifice on the coat tails of the anointed?

  I think that's where the FDS dogma comes in .

  Just what exactly does it mean to have Jesus as our mediator and how does that affect us differently from the way we are taught

  mediator means a go between . Without the perfect saccrifice of jesus we would still be doing animal saccrifice as the ancient jews did .

  I was always told to "pray through Jesus name", ;is there more than that?

  Apparently there are different ways to pray in the bible . Jesus did tell the apostles that anything they asked in his name would be granted . There did seem to be times when deiples were talking directly to jesus tho . The apostle Paul experienced it along with the deciple Stephen and John.
• 

  cyberguy

  *** w89 8/15 pp. 30-31 Questions From Readers ***Questions From Readers
  
  • Is Jesus the Mediator only for spirit-anointed Christians or for all mankind, since 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 speaks of him as the “mediator” who “gave himself a corresponding ransom for all”?
  The Bible contains both basic teachings and deep truths, which are solid food for study. One such study involves Jesus Christ’s role as Mediator. The apostle Paul wrote: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—this is what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times.”—1 Timothy 2:5, 6.
  
  To grasp what Paul is saying, we must first appreciate that the Bible sets out two destinies for faithful humans: (1) perfect life on a restored earthly paradise and (2) life in heaven for Christ’s “little flock,” numbering 144,000. (Luke 12:32; Revelation 5:10; 14:1-3) Christendom teaches that all good people go to heaven, which unscriptural position has colored the general view, so that Jesus is considered a go-between for all such people. What, though, does the Bible indicate? The Greek word me•si´tes, used for “mediator,” means ‘one who finds himself between two bodies or parties.’ It was a ‘many-sided technical term of Hellenistic legal language.’ Professor Albrecht Oepke (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament) says that me•si´tes was “one of the most varied technical terms in the vocabulary of Hellen[istic] law.”
  
  But why does the Bible use a legal term for Jesus’ mediatory role? As background, consider what Paul wrote about God’s Law given to Israel assembled before Mount Sinai: “It was transmitted through angels by the hand of a mediator.” (Galatians 3:19, 20) That mediator was Moses. He was the intermediary agent between Jehovah and the fleshly nation of Israel. An agent for what? For establishing a covenant, or legal contract, between God and the nation.
  
  Does this mean that there is a specific legal sense involved in Jesus’ role as Mediator? Yes. Note Paul’s comment at Hebrews 8:6. After speaking about the tabernacle and other typical representations under the Law covenant, he wrote: “Jesus has obtained a more excellent public service, so that he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established upon better promises.” The “better covenant” was the new covenant, which replaced the covenant mediated by Moses. (Hebrews 8:7-13) The new covenant was “legally established.” It laid the basis for some of Christ’s followers, beginning with the apostles, to gain “entry into the holy place,” heaven itself.—Hebrews 9:24; 10:16-19.
  
  There are other indications too of the legal nature of Jesus’ role as Mediator of the “new covenant.” Commenting on God’s promise at Psalm 110:4, Paul wrote: “To that extent also Jesus has become the one given in pledge [en´gy•os] of a better covenant.” (Hebrews 7:22) This is the only Biblical use of the word en´gy•os. The New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology says: “The engyos guaranteed that a legal obligation would be carried out.” So Jesus as Mediator of the new covenant serves as a legal pledge that “a better hope” would be realized.—Hebrews 7:19.
  
  Elsewhere Paul uses yet another word having a legal sense, ar•ra•bon´, translated “token.” The same dictionary says: “The Gk. word arrabon . . . is a legal concept from the language of business and trade.” Note how Paul used this legal term: “He who has anointed us is God. He has also put his seal upon us and has given us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit, in our hearts.” (2 Corinthians 1:21, 22) Both other occurrences of ar•ra•bon´ also deal with God’s anointing of Christians with spirit, bringing them an ‘everlasting reward or inheritance in the heavens’ as spirit sons of God.—2 Corinthians 5:1, 5; Ephesians 1:13, 14; see Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures.
  
  Clearly, then, the new covenant is not a loose arrangement open to all mankind. It is a carefully arranged legal provision involving God and anointed Christians.
  
  This should help us to understand 1 Timothy 2:5, 6. Here the reference to “mediator” was made after the five other occurrences of the word in letters written earlier. Hence, Timothy would have understood Jesus’ mediatorship to be His legal role connected with the new covenant. The Pastoral Epistles, by Dibelius and Conzelmann, acknowledges that at 1 Timothy 2:5 ‘the term “mediator” has a legal significance,’ and “although in this passage, in contrast to Heb 8:6, the [covenant] is not mentioned, one must nevertheless presuppose the meaning ‘mediator of the covenant,’ as the context shows.” Professor Oepke observes that 1 Timothy 2:5 presents Jesus as “the attorney and negotiator.”
  A modern-day illustration may help to clarify this, especially if you are not a spirit-anointed Christian. Think of a legal case in which an attorney is involved. His role may be not so much that of a lawyer arguing for justice as that of one who is mediating or bringing about a legal contract acceptable to and beneficial to two parties. Of course, you are not in that legal case, so in that sense he is not serving as your attorney. Yet he may be your very close friend who in other ways gives you valuable help.
  Sometimes an attorney’s work produces results that benefit many others. So it is with Jesus’ legal accomplishments as Mediator of the new covenant. It produces what the Law covenant did not, a heavenly “kingdom of priests.” (Exodus 19:6; 1 Peter 2:9) Thereafter anointed Christians in the Kingdom will work with Jesus from heaven to bring a blessing to “all nations of the earth.”—Genesis 22:18.
  
  The people of all nations who have the hope of everlasting life on earth benefit even now from Jesus’ services. Though he is not their legal Mediator, for they are not in the new covenant, he is their means of approaching Jehovah. Christ said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) All who will gain life on earth must direct their prayers to Jehovah through Jesus. (John 14:13, 23, 24) Jesus also serves as a compassionate High Priest who is able to apply in their behalf the benefits of his sacrifice, allowing them to gain forgiveness and eventual salvation.—Acts 4:12; Hebrews 4:15.
  
  Consequently, 1 Timothy 2:5, 6 is not using “mediator” in the broad sense common in many languages. It is not saying that Jesus is a mediator between God and all mankind. Rather, it refers to Christ as legal Mediator (or, “attorney”) of the new covenant, this being the restricted way in which the Bible uses the term. Jesus is also a corresponding ransom for all in that covenant, both Jews and Gentiles, who will receive immortal life in heaven. The apostle John referred to these at 1 John 2:2. But he indicated that others too will receive the benefit of Christ’s sacrifice: “He is a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins, yet not for ours only but also for the whole world’s.”
  
  Those of ‘the whole world’ are all who will gain eternal life in a restored earthly paradise. Millions of such approved servants of God now have that earthly hope. They view Jesus as their High Priest and King through whom they can daily gain approach to Jehovah. They rely on Jesus’ ransom, which is available to them, just as it will be to men such as Abraham, David, and John the Baptizer when these are resurrected. (Matthew 20:28) Thus, Christ’s sacrifice will lead to everlasting life for all obedient mankind.
  
  [Footnotes]
  
  A discussion of covenants appears in The Watchtower of February 1, 1989, pages 10-20.
  
  [Picture on page 31]
  
  Here at Mount Sinai, Moses served as mediator of the Law covenant
  
  [Credit Line]
  
  Pictorial Archive (Near Eastern History) Est.

  From the QFR it seems that WT is applying 1 Timothy 2:5,6 only to the so called “anointed.” The only problem is that the Bible teaches there is only one kind or class of Christian:

  (Ephesians 4:1-6) 4 I, therefore, the prisoner in [the] Lord, entreat YOU to walk worthily of the calling with which YOU were called, 2 with complete lowliness of mind and mildness, with long-suffering, putting up with one another in love, 3 earnestly endeavoring to observe the oneness of the spirit in the uniting bond of peace. 4 One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all [persons], who is over all and through all and in all.

  
  
  Notice there is only one hope! And one means one!