by AGuest 68 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Oh I almost forgot, will i have it by Wednesday? That will be a great birthday present.
Dearest Mystery, not only will I hand deliver it to you in Alabama, I will bring an extra shovel so we can dig into that big ol'bag o'poop together in your garden.... I will even bring some
Canadian beer for the both of us!! It will be great !!!
Dear Shelby:
we are not yet in agreement regarding "surrender" to what. Or, rather, WHOM.
I give you an example: you love your horses, yes? Brushing and grooming them, etc. They are beautiful creatures! But while you love what you see, the beauty of a simple being such as a horse, I have learned to love what is INSIDE that what you see, that which cannot be seen with the physical eye - it's SPIRIT! I am not bounded by the fact that it has a coat, hooves, a body, etc., all of which will, at some point, return to the dust. I am not concerned that it needs to be fed, watered, sheltered, etc. I ask you, who feeds those horses that run free on the plains as they have since the founding of the world? Speak to me of what is WITHIN that vessel… the life that has no limit. Can it be defined? Indeed, it can. In fact, it has a name, as does every living breathing thing. Do we know it? Not necessarily. Sure, we know "Old Ben," or whatever moniker we have given that creature. But do we know its TRUE name? How can we unless we know the TRUE being? Can we? Yes, we can, if we do not allow our flesh to limit us. The worm dying on the path after a spring rain… was a life, dear James. With a name. I may not know it, you may not know it. But my Father knows it. And unlike us, they… know Him.
First Shelby, let me say that you have a great talent with words, and the use of many words seems to be your forte. For me words are like so much smoke which easily distract us from the living reality of the moment. I generally use them only when necessary; and to get me involved in lengthy discussions is kind of like pulling teeth. Most of my posts are short as I like to get to the point. My sense is our entire dialog here is based on what you say above, and we just keep dancing around it.
Much of what you say I am agreement with such as: "I ask you, who feeds those horses that run free on the plains as they have since the founding of the world? Speak to me of what is WITHIN that vessel… the life that has no limit. Can it be defined? "
Dear Shelby, this is all I have been speaking about: "this life that has no limit".
NO LIMIT, means it can not be defined or circumscribed. INFINITY would be as close a title as we could get, but the mind can not comprehend infinity, so there is no way it can manipulate it. Here, we are in total agreement; and then, you go off and contradict your own words and get lost in a drama you have created in your mind: "Can it be defined? Indeed, it can. In fact, it has a name, as does every living breathing thing. "
There you go again, limiting what you earlier said has no limit down to a "THING" (a male thing at that) which you can DEFINE and NAME. Why do you do that? Why create a big mental drama around what is unknowable by the limited carnal mind? Why continually mold and engrave such limited imagery in your mind? Why not just admit that "the life which has no limit" is the Life that gives life to all life; the Existence which give existence to all things; and admit that since it has no limit it is the foundation Reality and Truth of everyone and everything. Is it because you would no longer feel special? No longer be able to announce yourself as a distinguished slave? It can be difficult, yet beautiful to really know that you are no more or less divine than the horse you are grooming or the grass he is eating. There is an unspeakable unifying wholeness in that knowing that leaves you wanting of nothing.
When you go off on your tangent of reductionism and defining, you sound like every other religious fanatic with their tiny little gods which we must bow to and obey or pay the price of punishment. Why go there? Why pock a stick into peoples wounds?
I totally agree with you that the Truth of Life, has no limit; and I would go on to say that the only thing which blinds us and numbs us to the unifying Wholeness and unlimited Presence is the minds continual story telling about how we are a separate little thing; or that our Source is too tiny to be our reality right here, right now. Such mental stories are simply fiction.
j
AWWW!!! kid-A, you paint such pretty pictures of paradise. ;)
May you have peace!
I would like to respond; however, I truly do not wish to "exhaust" you! Therefore (and please know that I say this in the kindest, most submissive "tone" that a human can use without appearing insincere), if you feel that you need to, just close the thread and move on. Truly, I will not be offended. There would be no benefit in it. But, if you can accommodate me further then, please, read on.
First, I want to say that I understand that you are, perhaps, a man... of little words. I also understand that that is a commendable and honorable position, particularly in contrast to someone like me - a woman (oohhhhhhh, that explains it!), whose heart is full and out of which she speaks (uh-oh, there *she* goes again!). At the risk of offending some here, I will say that perhaps it is the fact that I am a woman that my Lord revealed himself to me: according to some, we tend to be a little less… ummm… cynical, skeptical… and little more willing to entertain the… ummmmm… "unexplainable," receive that which may have originated from "the beyond." I dunno. There are some who believe we are a bit more "spiritual." I am not particularly advocating that belief, please understand, because I know for a fact a great many women claim to possess some "gift," some "psychic" ability, which they use to mislead and extort. Indeed, most in that industry are women. So, n ot advocating, but simply musing about it. So, please do not take my pseudo-generalization any more seriously than you should.
What I am trying to share with you, however, dear James, is not much different that what you are sharing with me. But I am truthful when I say that one of reasons you're having the difficulty you are, is because you are not being honest. Again, you know it and I know it. You wanted to "silence" me with your wisdom and, unfortunately, that did not occur. But I do not question your wisdom nor the "beauty" of your words and thoughts; indeed, I would be the FIRST to say that you are much, MUCH wiser than I am and a more "beautiful" thinker. I am a FOOLISH thing, as I have confessed openly, honestly, without shame.
I am not special, dear one, and I don't seek particular attention (actually, if you knew me, you'd know that truth, too!) have no special powers, I am no more extraordinary than the next person, but in fact, less so. I have, however, received a couple of gifts, one of which permits me to see and hear that which is not of this world - not physical… but spiritual. And I cannot attempt to deceive you or anyone else here deny from whom it is that I received it.
When you say:
NO LIMIT, means it can not be defined or circumscribed
My response is that I have learned that thast which has no limit CAN, in fact, be defined. By our tiny little physical minds? No. And it was not my mind that defined it (Him). Rather, i t was He who revealed... and defined Himself... to me, through Christ. I cannot lie to you, dear James!
INFINITY would be as close a title as we could get
Inifinity… is a man's word, created by man to "define" that which physical mind cannot define.
but the mind can not comprehend infinity
The physical mind, no. But the SPIRITUAL mind… what it can comprehend is beyond the understanding of the physical mind. I t, too, has no limits, which is why my Lord is recorded to have said: "I have many things to tell you… but you are not able to bear them… yet."
So there is no way it can manipulate it. Here, we are in total agreement;
Wonderful! But because we are not in TOTAL agreement… we are no longer friends? And you say I am still enslaved to former teachings and ways?????
and then, you go off and contradict your own words and get lost in a drama you have created in your mind: "Can it be defined? Indeed, it can. In fact, it has a name, as does every living breathing thing. "
There you go again, limiting what you earlier said has no limit down to a "THING" (a male thing at that) which you can DEFINE and NAME.
Defining something is not limiting it, dear James. I know you can't wrap your mind around that, but it is try. The Source of Life… is a being; I cannot lie to you and I won't "tickle" your ears. (With regard to your concern that I used a "male" thing, I have to say that you are limiting yourself… by your understanding of words such as "male," "female," "he," "she." W e have not even gotten into that discussion, which is for another time. But I will give you two things to ponder for that time: when it says "in God's image He created him; male and female He created them," where did the "female" image come from? And, in certain languages (i.e., Hispanic, etc.), Satan is referred in the female tense: Satanas.
Why do you do that?
There is an unlimited Source… and He is a being. A living, breathing Being. Does He live and breath as we do? No. Because He is not a PHYSICAL being, not a "terrestrial" being.
Why create a big mental drama around what is unknowable by the limited carnal mind?
didn't create anything. He came to me. He is not unknowable and He did not reveal Himself to my carnal mind. The carnal mind cannot perceive Him, dear one. That is the message I have been trying to share with you all along. He is indefinable, indescribable, unknowable and nameless to you… because you are limited… by your carnal mind! But you don't have to BE. You can be set FREE from that limitation… so as to see and hear and come to know that which YOU still believe is unknowable.
Why continually mold and engrave such limited imagery in your mind?
Why continually allow your mind to limit you?
Why not just admit that "the life which has no limit" is the Life that gives life to all life; the Existence which give existence to all things
I readily admit that truth!
and admit that since it has no limit it is the foundation Reality and Truth of everyone and everything
And I readily admit this, as well! But I ask you, why is it that cannot profess WHO that Life, Existence, Foundation, Reality and Truth is? Because you are LIMITED. Because your carnal mind does not KNOW Him. But I am not limited by my mind, dear one. Such that I know Him. See Him. Hear Him. And I confess that to you, openly, honestly, forthrightly.
Is it because you would no longer feel special?
(Scratching head) "Special?" You really do not get it, do you? I don't have a problem taking a "lower" seat, dear James. For the very reason that I am NOT special, but a servant. That's why I keep sharing what I do. But I don't do so out of some sense of specialness about myself (sigh!), but out of gratitude… and love. Someone shared these things with me… freely. In turn, I share them… freely. Why? Because it is what I would want someone to do for me… whether I heard or refrained. Hopefully, I wouldn't refrain too long.
No longer be able to announce yourself as a distinguished slave?
What, now I'm supposed to be offended, say something like, "Oooohhh... low blow!?" Sigh! I am what I am, dear James. I don't know about "distinquished" (where did that come from? what slave/servant is distinguished?!), but I am curious: why does my confession of that truth bother you so? Am I preventing you from serving? Am I preventing you from believing what you do? No. Have I condemned you for it? Nope. If you choose to be a master and I a servant, what of it?
It can be difficult, yet beautiful to really know that you are no more or less divine than the horse you are grooming or the grass he is eating.It is not difficult, if one is willing to accept the TRUTH. Not only am I no more or less divine that a mute beast, I can also be a servant to that beast, for it, too, belongs to God. I do not believe that "dominion" over animals means "superiority" over them. I believe it means the same as it did for man and woman: such beasts were entrusted into our care… and any time we abuse that trust, we sin against God, the One to whom they belong.
There is an unspeakable unifying wholeness in that knowing that leaves you wanting of nothing.
For some, perhaps. Some whose carnal mind is "complete," with that which is also carnal. For those whose minds are open to that which is spirit, that which is carnal can never be enough. They will keep searching… until they find what they are seeking: the Truth.
When you go off on your tangent of reductionism and defining, you sound like every other religious fanatic with their tiny little gods which we must bow to and obey or pay the price of punishment.
That is your perception. You have read, what, maybe 15-20 minutes of dialogue and have come to that conclusion. You do so because you assume I worship the "god" of religion. Nothing could be further from the Truth. I ask you, when is my Lord recorded to have asked anyone to bow down to him? Indeed, did he not bow down before others and wash their feet? Did he not make himself their servant? What punishment did he proclaim? Show me, please!
Why go there? Why pock a stick into peoples wounds?
Oh, Lordy, James! You have it backward! The purpose is not to poke sticks and cause harm… it is to share the means for HEALING! I did not create the wounds, nor did my Heavenly Father… as many would like to believe! And why? Well, because it's easier, isn't it? RELIGION created the wounds; RELIGION is responsible for the wounds; RELIGION pokes sticks in the wounds, promising healing that they cannot deliver! You read what I am granted to write and because of your WOUNDS… you refuse to receive it. Okay, that's your choice.
But you are allowing YOUR pain… to not only cloud your mind, but to close it. You will not allow yourself to accept that there is anything other than what you believe because what you believe has kept you "safe," all these years. "It" cannot "hurt" you…. because there is no "it." So, "it" cannot neither touch nor be touched. Again, I am SORRY that religion hurt you. It should be damned and will be.
I totally agree with you that the Truth of Life, has no limit;
Wonderful!
and I would go on to say that the only thing which blinds us and numbs us to the unifying Wholeness and unlimited Presence
And I would disagree and say that the only thing that blinds us and numbs us to Him…. is the mind. The mind draws toward that which is pleasant, and repels that which is unpleasant. Religion… was unpleasant. And religion… in YOUR mind… represents God. And therefore, God… is unpleasant. But because you can only "see" God through religion… and that vision is "ugly," you have closed your mind… and, unfortunately, your heart… altogether. Not everyone has, however, and if I can help them "see" that in doing so they are stopping JUST SHORT of what really is true… then my work is not in vain. Even if it turns out to be in vain, however, I would still have spent my life productively: I tried.
James, may I ask you: why do you capitalize "Wholeness" and "Presence"? How about "Reality" and "Truth," and "Truth of Life"?
is the minds continual story telling about how we are a separate little thing
It is only the carnal mind that teaches… and believes… such a thing. The spiritual mind knows that we are, in fact, branches… in a tree. When the spirit mind is limited, however, by the carnal mind… it cannot fathom this truth… or live according to it. Thus, we have world filled with hate…. because mankind has allowed his CARNAL mind… to SEPARATE itself from Him. When we are one with God…. we exist in love. We ARE love. When we hate, we separate ourselves from Him… and cannot love.
or that our Source is too tiny to be our reality right here, right now. Such mental stories are simply fiction.
Our Source… is not tiny, dear James. And He is real. right here, right now. And it is calling that which is true "mental stories," and perceiving them as such… that limits US… from accepting that reality. Right here… right now. "Look! I am WITH you…"
May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Most Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whose name is JAH… of Armies… and the love and peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, be upon you… if you so wish it. I remain…
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
Wow - I've been following this thread for some time, and I cannot believe what I'm seeing.
"But I am truthful when I say that one of reasons you're having the difficulty you are, is because you are not being honest. Again, you know it and I know it. You wanted to "silence" me with your wisdom and, unfortunately, that did not occur."
What presumption! Have you crawled inside JT's mind to know this for a fact or do you only have your assumptions? How can I know for a fact that you are being honest? Because you say so? See what I mean? James can come right back and say to you that he is being honest and you wouldn't believe him because your mind is already set against believing him, your mind is made up. A declaration from him about his honesty wouldn't sway you at all, would it? So how can you expect others to accept your declarations of honesty? I can't crawl inside your mind just as you can't crawl inside his.
James is attempting to point to what cannot be pinned down by anything the mind (carnal or "spiritual") defines. Any explanation is conceptual - it cannot be the thing being described. He is simply pointing people to directly and consciously experience "that" in which mind appears. Mind is mind, and as long a mind is attempting to grasp conceptually what "that" is, "that" will be overlooked. "That" is the foundation for everything, and when mind no longer interferes with "that" the underlying unity of creation is revealed - there is no longer a "this and that", only "that". Mind is the great divider of "that" and creates separation. Your mind has created this separation, and the unwillingness to directly see this for yourself maintains this separation. This is where religions and philosphies arise, in this separation, and this is the battleground for those who remain trapped in this separation. Whether this battleground is defended by an institution (religious or philosophical) or an individual egoic identity, the result is the same - separation.
I would like to add that your tone masks a hostility, perhaps unconsciously on your part, that is quite grating.
AGuest,
I have taken from this thread only one piece of wisdom to inform future interactions with you.
I will not engage you in a discussion by PM for fear that you ask me whether you can post our private discussion in the forum. Heavens forefend I should not consider and respond to your request! You will take a non-response as an affirmative response, and use this flawed rationale as basis for callously violating the rules of this forum.
If you are asking for permission to do a thing, do you not know the answer is negative until STATED otherwise? According to your method there should be no need to ask permission. Apparently, in your world, it is everyone else's responsibility to tell you not to. You wrote:
If, by some chance, I offend your sense of privacy, I sincerely apologize, for that is not my intention at all
Fortunately for you, James Thomas is a gracious person. You may not have offended his sense of privacy or perhaps he overlooked it, but you have gravely offended mine.
The questions you perceived as too important to keep from the eyes of others were offered by PM, not in front of the eyes of others. By implication, James Thomas did not agree with your assessment as to the necessity of discussing them in public. I hope you have been censured by some means for your brazen and ADMITTED disregard of the rules of this forum.
Your apology to James Thomas is insufficient, in my opinion. You violated the assumed purpose of having a system for Private Messages and weakened my personal confidence that—on this forum—my privacy will be regarded sacrosant unless permission is specifically granted. There is no provision in the rules for assuming that the permission has been granted.
You closed the initial post, " SJ (who has nothing to 'hide')" but I sincerely disagree.
Had you provided your full name, address, social security number, and so forth I have great confidence that within a month I could reveal quite a number of things you would prefer to keep hidden. If you wish to test me out, please feel free to voluntarily PM your information to me. Unlike yourself, I do not violate the privacy of others unless they specifically allow me to.
Curiously,
AuldSoul
What I am trying to share with you, however, dear James, is not much different that what you are sharing with me.
Yes, I agree, there are many beautiful similarities.
But I am truthful when I say that one of reasons you're having the difficulty you are, is because you are not being honest. Again, you know it and I know it. You wanted to "silence" me with your wisdom and, unfortunately, that did not occur.
As I explained before, the questions are designed to silence the mind, that consciousness may see past the conceptual mind to it's -- and everything's -- unending Source. If you have come to identify your "self" as limited to that of the chatter in your mind, then yes, it was "you" that was meant to be silenced. But not with "my" wisdom, rather that innate within your being.
James, may I ask you: why do you capitalize "Wholeness" and "Presence"? How about "Reality" and "Truth," and "Truth of Life"?When I capitalize certain words it is reference to the unconditional and foundational living actuality (which can not be grasp by the mind) of what the word points to. For example Life, is the reality of our being. We are not a person who is alive, or who takes part in a life, as the limited mind interprets it; we are the indescribable completeness of Life/Actuality/Reality/Being/God/Truth itself.
"All that I ever put into words is a lie. Total bull shit; in that it is not the actual truth; which you are. Which everyone and everything ultimately and foundationally IS."
Well put, James.
All I really want an answer to by Shelby is if it was revealed to her as Truth, would she cut her babies arms off or drown them in a bathtub?
Slave to my own beliefs,
sKally
Incidently 'AGuest', do you know Aaron Harden?
sKally
