Reasoning with the Witnesses - for newbies. (page 2)

startingover

Great stuff posted on here so far.

I too am guilty of using the "shotgun" approach. Live and learn.

Send JW families and friends copies of the following. Many who converted came in from a study in the little book "Truth That Leads To Eternal Life" so now they can exit with this tiny fast read item: REAL TRUTH LEADS TO ETERNAL LIFE John 8:32 says Truth, meaning the real truth, frees by overturning misteachings about God and God's will, so please read this with an open-mind and knowing it does not mention any religion by name but is focused on teachings common among some.
EASTER: Its name was not for the goddess Eastre but a misinterpretation of the Latin for White Week, the week when those about to be baptized in England wore white. The name may also be influenced by the Anglo-Saxon word “Eastern” as Christianity came from the east. Easter eggs-chicks-baby rabbits started to be used to symbolize new life as in Christ's resurrection, never based on nonChristian fertility rites.
EMERGENCY BLOOD AND MEDICENE: 1 Samuel 14:32-35 says Saul's army ate UN-BLED meat without punishment as it was an emergency to save life. They just built an altar of repentance due to the Mosaic law of that time." Identical twins normally transfuse blood to each other via shared placenta and moms' milk includes white blood cells. Christ said people need doctors (Mt 9:12, Mark 2:17, Lu 5:31) and Luke was a doctor (Col 4:14) yet a few groups preach against doctors and/or emergency blood, some members dying; yet God wants "mercy not sacrifice.” (Mt 12:7)
DISFELLOWSHIPPING (SHUNNING) 2 Corinthians 2:6 says "The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him" so "the majority" (not ALL) had followed Paul's suggestion to shun a wrongdoer, and the dissenting minority were not punished. Paul ordered worker Timothy who worked for him, but otherwise Christians obeyed conscience (Romans 14). Yet some groups compel shunning, use intimidation, censorship, humiliation etc.
CHRISTIAN FREEDOM: At Ephesians 4:4 Paul said there's only "one faith" meaning Christianity in general, the many modern denominations not existing until later. Yet today some claim to be the one and only true church. Judges 17:6 says God arranged for everyone in Israel to enjoy freedom and when the tribes said they wanted human rulers He warned of dictatorship. (I Sa 8) Today a great cure for religious dictatorships is more local autonomy with democracy; the one most faithful wise servant and Leader only being Christ; (Mt 10:23) and going by Romans 14 on freedom to have different opinions.
LOVE: Ecclesiastes 3:1 by Solomon says "there is a place for everything." Instead of numerous and absolute rules on things, common sense and love for others need to guide our decisions and actions as Romans 14 permits.
PREACHING/WITNESSING/CONVERSIONS: Luke 10:7 says "Do not be transferring house to house" and Christ went from a house in one town to a house in another but never preached at one door right after another as some groups do. Christianity’s conversions (see Bible in Acts) have never required a 6-12 months or more long Bible study but have been about as fast as accepting Jesus Christ as our Savior from death via resurrection.
HOLIDAYS: Col 2:16 "Therefore do not let anyone judge you by food, drink, a religious festival, New Moon celebration or Sabbath day." Yet some do and accept money, use day and month names, rings etc that allegedly "have pagan origins" while denying children and adults the "joy" (Ga 5:22) of Christmas, birthdays etc.
FELLOWSHIP: Colossians 3:14 says the greatest bond of unity is "love" yet some groups call others "false Christians," slander-shun-expel-censor-humiliate or otherwise beat on them for differing on if hellfire is literal/symbolic/non-access-to-God, if God's nature is trinitarian/unitarian/modalism (Oneness), if Romans 16:1 shows women can/can't be ministers/deaconnesses etc, at times killing dissenters. Yet Christ helped all and died so ALL might live and Paul at Romans 14 says we enjoy great Christian freedom of expression. So loving fellowship among us comes first.
CHRIST AND THE BIBLE: Matthew 23:10 says Christ is the only one overall Leader for Christians; yet some groups do what they are told to believe in and act as told by a man or an organization group of men who interpret the Bible for them though it, not them, is the only perfectly inspired Teacher. (1Ti3:16) Matthew 10:8 etc say give free what you got free yet some sell magazines, books, flowers etc that more than just cover cost of printing but bring profit.
CHRISTMAS which is December 25 the date of the first Jewish festival of Hannukah now varying because lunar based, so Roman Saturnalia may not be its only origin. Christ was at the Feast of Dedication, another name for Hannukah (Jn 10:22) Santa was based on an actual Christian (Saint Nicholas) famed for giving gifts in the Middle Ages. NEW YEARS: God began the Jewish New Year's celebration Rosh Hashana at Lev 23. Without excess drinking it's biblically fine. HALLOWEEN came from All Hallows (Holy Ones/Saints) Evening when Christians dressed kids as saints; many Europeans and other Christians still do so. THANKSGIVING began as the annual autumn harvest in Hebrew called "Festival of Booths" or "Festival of Ingathering" (of crops with thanks to Him) (Lev 23:33, Deu 16:13) now celebrated in numerous nations on many continents.
FLAGS (banners in some translations) were used by the Israelite tribes instead of tiny hoisted idols (Ex 20:4); are for respect not worship. Read Ps 20:5, Song of Solomon 2:4, 6:4,10 TETRAGRAMMATON: Christ and Paul say use Father/Abba/papa/dad (Mt 6:9; Romans 8:15, Galatians 4:6) not one of the various possible reconstructed formal names, and God told Israel’s tribes His name must never be misused so that’s why so many modern Christians and Jews substitute Lord, out of respect not superstition. All earliest New Testament manuscripts use Lord.
CROSS. Paul says boast of the cross as a resurrection symbol over death, (Ga 6:14, 1 Cor 1:17-18), not a “repugnant murder weapon” or stake as some claim. Archaeology proves it was a cross. Forensics researcher F Zugibe proved death by cross takes several hours as Lu 23:44 and Mt 27:45-6 say; only minutes if by stake. Greek “stauros” means cross or stake, never just stake. REVELATION'S 144,000 number can be symbolic since the book itself is and Rev 19:1 says a great crowd’s in heaven.

LennyinBluemont

Free Willy,

Extremely well thought-out and articulated concepts. We need more of this on the forum. Practical methods that work. I was sorry to see this thread peak and then sink so fast. Questions are far more powerful than statements, and give the questioner control of the conversation and it's direction.

Lenny

PoppyR

I really enjoyed your comments, I think you are so right!! As soon as I raised a couple of points to my family everything shut down and now nobody mentions anything spiritual to me or asks why I am not going. Their self protection mechanism is incredibly finely tuned!

It's a very 'drip drip' approach I feel, and also we must recognise that unless they are ready to listen.. nothing will have much effect. It can be frustrating, I raised the 607 issue with a couple of people who could not answer my questions, both of them eventually fell back on the old reliable "we must trust in Jehovah to reveal it in his own time" One elder said "who knows we might get new light on this matter"!!

They are totally brainwashed and blinded, and most of us need to remember we were too!

I like your suggestion for an idea to make them question though.

Poppy

misspeaches

What a great post. So many brilliant ideas. There is so much good information that it needs time to read it properly and digest. I hope this makes it to the best of series.

bythesea

Free Willy...hey! I wish I'd had this firmly implanted in my head this past weekend...I spent 2 horrible days arguing with my devout JW husband...all to no avail, of course, and even as I was in the throes of pleading my side of things I knew and could see that it was having absolutely no effect! It is soo absolutely frustrating to have information that has been so monumental to me mean nothing to him!! How can he not see what is going on, I wonder!! I also knew from reading other posts on JWD that arguing is NOT the way to try to get through to them...but once you're embroiled in the debate its sooo hard to just shut up! I will try and approach things differently next time.... altho my hubby is rrequesting another go around in order to "win me back to the truth" HA!

Scully....love your approach too and will definitely use it in the future with family and hubby ...you're right, few will argue over a person feeling that their Bible trained conscience is telling them to do/not do something! And if it can leave an impression even better then!!

Wanda....that was some interesting information!!!

This is an awesome thread, I hope to read more good info to be able to use with my mate and family! I'm waiting for the curtain to go down around me and family to start not wanting to talk to me about anything spiritual...some are asking questions now about why I'm not getting to meetings anymore...its always so hard to know how to answer those kinds of questions and still leave the door open for future conversations!

Thanks again, FW for your post!! I've not forgotten your other advice in your pm's to me...I've just been a slacker on answering! Hope the ocean is treating you well!! Bythesea

AWAKE&WATCHING

This is really good stuff so I thought a resurrection was in order. I can't believe it was buried so quickly.

GromitSK

That's great Wanda assuming I believe Christianity and consider freedom to comprise leaving the WTBS and adopting another form of Bible-based religion. :) although I concede it might be a good way of at least getting them to open their minds to the idea that the Org isn't what it claims to be.

LUKEWARM

Great post!

Well thought out questions and personalised statements that take the pressure off them to defend their beliefs are the key to meaningful conversation and possibly the best chance we have of getting through to them...

outofthebox

Good stuff!

Reasoning with the Witnesses - for newbies.