Excercising free will and trusting yourself

by digglina 11 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

digglina

Maybe you can help me think a little.
I'm not getting very far myself...
For the last couple of months some things have changed in my live and this made me 'collide with the system'. I've been thinking, roaming the internet, looking into old books etc. These are the things I came up with:
- having these personal problems 'standard' phrases came popping into my head everytime. With every problem I had, every question I could think of, a scripture or WT sentence magically popped up. Was I brainwashed? Couldn't I think for myself anymore? What was I feeling?
- How can one excercise free will if threatened by disfellowshipping whenever one tries to act upon one's own conscience?
- If we cannot decide for ourselves how to walk straight, how can we make the right decision to serve God? This is a big issue to me. I mean, if we cannot think for ourselves how can we be sure JW is the right religion. A JW friend of mine is always saying that if we just try to live right, that we are no better than the 'wordly' people around us. The thing is: we aren't (of course). The mistake JW's make (I made) is that they think they are part of the only right way to live. They forget allong the way that they made that choice! In my perspective you have to trust your own feeling saying to you that you're right: pointing you towards religion or in any other way. God gave us a free will and we have to use it the right way. But if we cannot trust our own feeling or thinking how can we even choose the so-called right way to be a JW (just thinking from a JW perspective). So if you cannot listen to your gut feeling (and you can't because you have to listen to what you are taught to) how can you excercise free will?
other issues that made me think twice:
- old books with old explanations of prophecies, especially the ones that were trying to fit in recent JW history into the bible.
- WTBTS founded upon people who started out with just researching the bible for themselves and praying
- the changes in blood policy and thinking of how many lives that costed
- the UN membership and the fact that 'nobody' seems to know about that (thank God for the internet...)
and last but not least:
the unhappy people I see in the congretations nowadays, people who don't seem to have any control over their own lives. Maybe I'm projecting my own feelings now, but it seems as if many are just denying their own feelings because these don't fit into WT policy. It makes it impossible for individuals to develop in a natural way. It is taking away you're own responsibility, not only towards God, but also towards other people and, mostly, towards yourself.
So, where I end up with, after this possibly not very logically monologue, are the following ancient questions:
Can I decide not to be a JW anymore without being doomed?
Can I be the judge of my own life and how to live it?
Can I trust my own feelings and go with them?
Can I trust myself to put my trust in God and him to lead me to the right decisions and correct me if I'm wrong?
Can I decide that the WTBTS GB are just humans who are trying to the right thing but don't have to tell me how to live my life?
Please give me your thoughts on the above (if anymore explanation is required I'll be happy to elaborate...)
Digglina
Elsewhere

To answer your questions: Yes!
It takes time to get that programming out of your head... but it is possible! The simple fact that you have started to recognize the programming is a great sign you are well on your way to deprogramming yourself.
- If we cannot decide for ourselves how to walk straight, how can we make the right decision to serve God? This is a big issue to me. I mean, if we cannot think for ourselves how can we be sure JW is the right religion. A JW friend of mine is always saying that if we just try to live right, that we are no better than the 'wordly' people around us. The thing is: we aren't (of course). The mistake JW's make (I made) is that they think they are part of the only right way to live. They forget allong the way that they made that choice! In my perspective you have to trust your own feeling saying to you that you're right: pointing you towards religion or in any other way. God gave us a free will and we have to use it the right way. But if we cannot trust our own feeling or thinking how can we even choose the so-called right way to be a JW (just thinking from a JW perspective). So if you cannot listen to your gut feeling (and you can't because you have to listen to what you are taught to) how can you excercise free will?
That's great how you recognized the circular reasoning! Something to remember is that the vast majority of humans are born with the instinctive desire to do "good". The only problem is that "good" is not defined in that instinct! We are forced to learn from our environment what "good" is. This is why JWs feel it is "good" to shun a family member or to allow a person to bleed to death. Someone convinced them that these things are "good".
It all comes down to a very simple fact: Morality is defined by consensus of a population. If a population believes that human sacrifice is "good" then everyone will be happy when that happens. If a population believes that murder is wrong, then everyone will be angry when that happens.
Sirona

Welcome, Digglina,
What a fantastic post! Making decisions for yourself when in the JWs (or when having just left the JWs) is very difficult indeed. Most JWs will say they have free-will, but when you go in to depth, as you have done, you realise that they are only operating within the confines of what the "society" has printed.
Can I decide not to be a JW anymore without being doomed?
I suppose the real question here is: "Are the JWs correct that they are God's only representatives on earth today?" If you submit that to scrutiny and look at their fruits, including their sordid history, you'll be half way there with an answer to this question. An important step for me was to then educate myself about OTHER religions. Look at other groups who also do not go to war, etc. Look at groups who also use Jehovah as Gods name. Look at non-christian groups. If you compare them, you'll find that the JW religion isn't that super-fantastic after all.
Can I be the judge of my own life and how to live it?
It is my opinion that learning how to do this is a big part of why were are here. I strive to be true to myself - always.
Can I trust my own feelings and go with them?
Feelings. Well. They cannot always be trusted, no. Sometimes I will go with my gut instinct, but more often I'll assess things logically and make decisions based on 1. Is it what I really want and need? 2. Will it hurt anyone else? I might find that it will hurt someone else, but then I have to consider if their stance is logical. For instance, my mother says "I am so hurt and upset that you left the JWs and I'll only be happy if you return". My opinion of that is that she made a choice to make herself unhappy based on something I did. Compare that with the pain I would cause someone if I were to destroy something dear to them, or if I were to take something from them (stealing) - in that case my conscience would not allow me to do something like this.
Can I trust myself to put my trust in God and him to lead me to the right decisions and correct me if I'm wrong?
Yes. Find simple moral guidelines and follow them. Pray. It is my opinion that the "correction" comes in the form of the repercussions of what we did.
Can I decide that the WTBTS GB are just humans who are trying to the right thing but don't have to tell me how to live my life?
It sounds like you have decided that already. I'd say that most JWs are just trying to do the right thing. There are some, in my opinion, who know full well what they're doing and they make sure that things like the UN are covered up. Doing the right thing would also mean issuing a formal apology to the victims of abuse within the watchtower and, like other religious groups, offer financial assistance for counselling etc. Doing the right thing would mean compensating families financially who have lost someone through denial of organ transplants or blood. Doing the right thing would also mean admitting where they've lied and how they've mislead people.
Sirona
digglina

Thank you, Elsewhere!
The thing is, it's so hard to see whether or not my own motivation is pure and I mean, what is truth? How can we know, while we are only seeing things from our own perspective? Questions which are probably just too philosphical. Great minds have been thinking about truth and never found out what it was, so how can I possibly.
But, to be more practical, it is really hard to change. I would like to shout outloud: I DON'T BELIEVE IT ANYMORE! and YOU ARE ALL WRONG!, but the consequences are really big and I just have to be sure for myself first.
Something that also really shocked me by the way, was the fact that in the purple Kingdom Interlineair (English/Greek version) the name Jehovah isn't mentioned once! The evidence is right under your nose and you just don't see it. (It's like the recent history of JW's: I always kind of ignored it, because I already felt it didn't fit).
But now I'm having these fears and anxieties (althought I'm quiet a balanced person...) and it feels as if the reason lies in the fact that I cannot live like I would like to live. I'm a very straight forward person and it is difficult not to speak freely. My weak side is also that I have difficulty trusting my own judgement (and then feeling disappointed when I didn't go with it and it turned out wrong...). That doesn't come in very handy with this particular issue!! I recently read on this forum about someone who decided to leave within four months. I admire that and wonder: how can you be so sure so soon?
Any 'deprogramming' suggestions are welcome!
Digglina
SixofNine

Hi digglina, welcome to the discussion board.
My comment on your post would be that in the first half, you seem to have things pretty much figured out. In the second half, you seem to not be listening to yourself regarding what you've already figured out.
You may not be perfect, digglina, but you are certainly more decent and honest and intelligent than the group of insulated, power-loving, old men (and all their yes men) residing in Brooklyn bethel.
Sirona

Educate yourself on cults and exiting them. Even though the JWs are more often classified as a "high control group" - the information on cults applies in many ways.
For instance here is a list of common problems on exiting a cult. I've highlighted ones that I've personally experienced after leaving the JWs. As for point 7, thank God for JWD!
Common Issues in Post-Cult Recovery
Some of the recovery issues that keep recurring in my work with ex-cult members are:
1. Sense of purposelessness, of being disconnected. They left a group that had a powerful purpose and intense drive; they miss the peak experiences produced from the intensity and the group dynamics.
2. Depression.
3. Grieving for other group members, for a sense of loss in their life.
4. Guilt. Former members will feel guilt for having gotten involved in the first place, for the people they recruited into the group, and for the things they did while in the group.
5. Anger. This will be felt toward the group and/or the leaders. At times this anger is misdirected toward themselves.
6. Alienation. They will feel alienation from the group, often from old friends (that is, those who were friends prior to their cult involvement), and sometimes from family.
7. Isolation. To ex-cult members, no one "out there" seems to understand what they're going through, especially their families.
8. Distrust. This extends to group situations, and often to organized religion (if they were in a religious cult) or organizations in general (depending on the type of cult they were in). There is also a general distrust of their own ability to discern when or if they are being manipulated again. This dissipates after they learn more about mind control and begin to listen to their own inner voice again.
9. Fear of going crazy. This is especially common after "floating" experiences (see point 18 below for explanation of floating).
10. Fear that what the cult said would happen to them if they left actually might happen.
11. Tendency to think in terms of black and white, as conditioned by the cult. They need to practice looking for the gray areas.
12. Spiritualizing everything. This residual sometimes lasts for quite a while. Former members need to be encouraged to look for logical reasons why things happen and to deal with reality, to let go of their magical thinking.
13. Inability to make decisions. This characteristic reflects the dependency that was fostered by the cult.
14. Low self-esteem. This generally comes from those experiences common to most cults, where time and again members are told that they are worthless.
15. Embarrassment. This is an expression of the inability to talk about their experience, to explain how or why they got involved or what they had done during that time. It is often manifested by an intense feeling of being ill at ease in both social and work situations. Also, often there is a feeling of being out of sync with everyone else, of going through culture shock, from having lived in a closed environment and having been deprived of participating in everyday culture.
16. Employment and/or career problems. Former members face the dilemma of what to put on a resume to cover the blank years of cult membership.
17. Dissociation. This also has been fostered by the cult. Either active or passive, it is a period of not being in touch with reality or those around them, an inability to communicate.
18. Floating. These are flashbacks into the cult mindset. It can also take on the effect of an intense emotional reaction that is inappropriate to the particular stimuli.
19. Nightmares. Some people also experience hallucinations or hearing voices. A small percentage of former members need hospitalization due to this type of residual.
20. Family issues.
21. Dependency issues.
22. Sexuality issues.
23. Spiritual (or philosophical) issues. Former members often face difficult questions: Where can I go to have my spiritual (or belief) needs met? What do I believe in now? What is there to believe in, trust in?
24. Inability to concentrate, short-term memory loss.
25. Re-emergence of pre-cult emotional or psychological issues.
26. Impatience with the recovery process.
http://www.csj.org/infoserv_indexes/index_tpcol_exmember.htm
Elsewhere

My weak side is also that I have difficulty trusting my own judgement (and then feeling disappointed when I didn't go with it and it turned out wrong...). That doesn't come in very handy with this particular issue!!

I'm a very logical person, and at the same time I'm also a very feeling person. (A very strange way to exist) When I am confronted with a choice I will first analize it to DEATH. If I cannot find a way to logically quantify the problem so I can come to a logical conclusion, I fall back on my feeling side. I just listen to how the choice "feels". Does it "feel" right? Am I comfortable with it? Can I get a good night sleep while considering living with the choice? I have found that when I fall back on and trust my "feeling" on something, I almost always find that it was the right decision.
You have spent your whole life in a relaxed mode allowing the Watchtower Society to tell you what to do and allowing the Watchtower Society to make all of the hard decisions for you. It was easy for you because you had no accountability. You are now being confronted with what everyone else has had to do their entire life: Choose for yourself - and then live with the choice. When you had the Watchtower Society there to tell you what to do you had no accountability, but now you do! Free will comes with a price... but I feel it is well worth it. This accountability makes one stop and consider the repercussions of a decision and therefore causes one to make better decisions.
garybuss

Welcome Digglina
Keep digging. You're on a road being traveled by lots of good people. There's lots of resources. Just ask for what you are looking for if you can't find it. We'll help you.
If you were raised by Witness parents like me, it takes some time. When I got stuck, outside exit counseling helped me.
Read, talk, confront everything, challenge everything especially your assumptions. Those are your core beliefs, your filters. If you're like me, your core beliefs are flawed. It was interesting for me to actually identify those core beliefs and then challenge those core beliefs.
Some are fine, and some are flawed. I made some bad decisions in my life, in business, and in my important relationships and most of those bad decisions were because I made decisions based on assumptions and those assumptions were based on my core beliefs and many of my core beliefs were wrong.
A mistake I made in recovery was confronting Witness relatives. In my next life, I will protect them from me.
digglina

Elsewhere:
That's great how you recognized the circular reasoning! Something to remember is that the vast majority of humans are born with the instinctive desire to do "good". The only problem is that "good" is not defined in that instinct! We are forced to learn from our environment what "good" is. This is why JWs feel it is "good" to shun a family member or to allow a person to bleed to death. Someone convinced them that these things are "good".
It all comes down to a very simple fact: Morality is defined by consensus of a population. If a population believes that human sacrifice is "good" then everyone will be happy when that happens. If a population believes that murder is wrong, then everyone will be angry when that happens.
Thank you for this great example (I couldn't see it on screen earlier...). This is excactly what I mean. In the end we are all deciding for ourselves what is good. Or we let our environment decide for us...
Sirona:
Feelings.Well. They cannot always be trusted, no. Sometimes I will go with my gut instinct, but more often I'll assess things logically and make decisions based on 1.Is it what I really want and need? 2.Will it hurt anyone else?I might find that it will hurt someone else, but then I have to consider if their stance is logical. For instance, my mother says "I am so hurt and upset that you left the JWs and I'll only be happy if you return".My opinion of that is that she made a choice to make herself unhappy based on something I did. Compare that with the pain I would cause someone if I were to destroy something dear to them, or if I were to take something from them (stealing) - in that case my conscience would not allow me to do something like this.
Thank you for your usefull comments Sirona. I think that where I said feeling I mostly ment intuition (with this I mean heart and ratio combined). I like the way you illustrate it with the questions you ask yourself and also the example of your mother. It is difficult sometimes to decide upon something which you know will be hurtful for someone you love, but it is not always something you have to take into account. You have your own responsibility in the end and so have others. I will also follow up on your suggestion to look into other religons. This is something I already discussed with one of my friends: she says there are still some pilars in the religion that make her decide to stay in there. I said to her: if you were in an other religion wouldn't there also be (different) pilars that would make you stay in there? How can a few rights undo so many wrongs?
Sixofnine:
My comment on your post would be that in the first half, you seem to have things pretty much figured out. In the second half, you seem to not be listening to yourself regarding what you've already figured out.
You may not be perfect, digglina, but you are certainly more decent and honest and intelligent than the group of insulated, power-loving, old men (and all their yes men) residing in Brooklyn bethel.
Thank you very much for your sweet respons. It makes me feel a lot better. And you're absolutely right. This is just my thing: I have to trust myself to rely upon my own judgement. But all your comments give me a lot of encouragement. And what I especially appreciate is that all your answers are logical. I'm a very rational person and I think being a JW made me even more rational. So I do need sound arguments to convince myself that this is the right way. The thought of life lying there open is nice though....
Digglina
digglina

Elsewhere,
I regcognise the analysing thing: I'm just like that . Only I always ignored my 'feely' side. That hasn't turned out well for me, because It made me make the wrong decisions, decisions that were not good for me. I'm a very sensitive person. For a long time I didn't even realise that sometimes the feelings I had weren't mine: I was just being so empathic that I felt what people around me were feeling.
I was taught not to listen to my feelings to a point that even when I intuitively thought I had to take a turn to the right I automatically considered this to be the wrong choice (because I 'felt' it) and thus made a turn to the left (which of course was the wrong way and then I started to blame myself).
I am also a very responsible person upto a point that I can make life difficult for myself. Nevertheless I agree with you that religion takes your own accountability away. This is also why it doesn't feel good to me anymore. It started it out when I decided to divorce on unbiblical grounds. I thought it through thoroughly and thought the elders would understand. It came up to a point that I felt I would die if I stayed with my husband. Of course they felt for me, but couldn't agree on it. (I could not provide any evidence for adultery, am still only suspecting. And the fact that he is a compulsive liar, a drunk and a gambler was of course not to the point). The fact that I wanted their approval so badly (because they were representing Jehovah as I believed) but couldn't get it, while I was sure I couldn't make any other decision was killing me. That started me thinking about my own responsibility in my live (my accountability as you name it). When I was ignored by the whole congregation (while I struggled with coming to the hall with my two small children and in 'good standing') it started it me thinking about the religion...
Digglina
P.S. Thank you for putting it so clearly (You are now being confronted with what everyone else has had to do their entire life: Choose for yourself - and then live with the choice.). That´s really helping me...

Excercising free will and trusting yourself

Common Issues in Post-Cult Recovery

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