by nicolaou 148 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
whereami I totally understand your point. I am aware of the many injustices being done, poverty, sickness and death. Why does God allow suffering? I always wondered about that.
That doesn't make me lose faith and have hope that God will set things right. An atheist could probably hypothesize I've got the "God gene"
I wish I and everyone had all the answers.
Why does God allow suffering? I always wondered about that.
The answer is stunningly simple, you just aren't ready to accept it yet.
One of my biggest worries as a 12,13,14 year old was that Armageddon would come before I was able to drive an automobile. How could a God of Love allow my older siblings to drive and not me?
As a 40-something year old, over a million-mile driver, I can honestly say that my prayer was answered.
Go ahead Nic.
Prove me wrong.
om
But for some it's just to painful to except otherwise. When we believe there's a daddy up in the sky watching our every move, thought, ect, we "feel" safe, protected.
Well and there's nothing wrong with that. In the words of William James "An idea is 'true' so long as to believe it is profitable to our lives." If people can't think or calm down to escape anxiety or escape trauma or despair without having God to pray to, then God is real because he needs to be.
whereami I totally understand your point. I am aware of the many injustices being done, poverty, sickness and death. Why does God allow suffering? I always wondered about that.
That doesn't make me lose faith and have hope that God will set things right. An atheist could probably hypothesize I've got the "God gene"
I wish I and everyone had all the answers.
Thanks for responding NH. I don't expect you or I or anyone for that matter to have all the answers. But what we should expect is being rational and honest when discussing these matters.
To say "God will set things right" is, in my opinion a very weak and easy way of not facing reality. So you're saying that while god has intervened in your life by answering your prayers he'll get around to the "other" less important stuff eventually because you're more important at the moment? And if he never gets around to those other prayers well that just because he doesn't see fit to do it. The old "god works in mysterious ways" excuse. Isn't it convieniant that it's "mysterious" when it doesn't happen to us. Come on NH, we both know you don't believe that. That's not very noble is it?
It reminds me of when I was still a JW listening to "experiences" of faithful brothers saying how god answered their prayers and bla bla bla (insert your miracle) while us poor "regular" publishers going through the same or similar experience never heard a peep from the same god they were praying to. Tell me something, when you started to realize that your JW religion was a farce and that those experiences of answered prayers was not god answering them, why were you able to rationalize them away then, but not now? Be honest with yourself.
Well and there's nothing wrong with that. In the words of William James "An idea is 'true' so long as to believe it is profitable to our lives." If people can't think or calm down to escape anxiety or escape trauma or despair without having God to pray to, then God is real because he needs to be.
Would you say that to the alcoholic, that drinks to escape his problems? Would you say that to someone suffering any addiction to "help" ease the pain or give them comfort? Or would you think it better to help them see the real problem?
Would you insist on your child believing in Santa, fairy tails, talking to teddy to find real comfort in life?
But at the same time I understand what your're saying. And to some extent I agree that people have the need to convince themselves of things that make then feel better. I guess if that's what gets you through the day so be it.
Here are some other quotes you might like:
"Pray, v. To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy."
-by Bierce, Ambrose
"When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist."
-by Camara, Dom Helder
"A lie is a lie even if everyone believes it. The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it."
-by Stevens, David
"Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish."
-by Anonymous
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."
-by Hitchens, Christopher
"There is no belief, however foolish, that will not gather its faithful adherents who will defend it to the death."
-by Asimov, Isaac
"If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can solve them."
-by Asimov, Isaac
"Faith does not give you the answers, it just stops you asking the questions."
-by Ravus, Frater
"Take from the church the miraculous, the supernatural, the incomprehensible, the unreasonable, the impossible, the unknowable, the absurd, and nothing but a vacuum remains."
-by Ingersoll, Robert Green
"He that will not reason is a bigot; he that cannot reason is a fool; he that dares not reason is a slave."
-by Drummond, William
"To really be free, You need to be free in the mind."
-by Loutsis, Alexander
Would you say that to the alcoholic, that drinks to escape his problems? Would you say that to someone suffering any addiction to "help" ease the pain or give them comfort? Or would you think it better to help them see the real problem?
But drinking is not ultimately profitable. Overcoming the need to pray may very well not get a believer anywhere further than where they would have been: they're dying either way. And dying with the knowledge that it is 'the end' may be much more traumatic than dying otherwise.
Incidentally, I'm kind of half playing devil's advocate here...
To answer succinctly, nope. However, that's not to say I couldn't truthfully relay an anecdote about positive coincidences occuring after a prayer was said... but that would require some creative historical editorializing. I'd need my memory filter so I only recall the hits and forget the misses.
On a related topic, I've read many recent posts on here from subscribers who shared fond memories of the "better times" within the bOrg that have since been removed: delicious food at conventions and assemblies, being permitted to write an introduction, brief commentary and a conclusion on the #2 Bible reading during the TMS, wearing what you want at the hotel or restraunts after convention, book studies in private homes (followed by a monthly "treat night" where people could fellowship and share desserts or perhaps even change clothes and play volleyball or dip in the pool during summer months) and who could forget the new song book. Yes, even ExJWs who firmly oppose the doctrine still fondly remenisce the happy, marchy and proud anthems that once provided JWs with a small sense of pride, esteem and vigor. "We're Jehovah's Witnesses," "Life Without End at Last," "Move Ahead!" and "We Must Have the Faith" were catchy earworms that remind many of us of our happy, safe childhoods. Some ExJWs even recently admitted to me that they still keep these old songs around and occasionally listen to them because they just make them "feel good." But noooo, not even those are around anymore. We have the creepy, GB-worshipping, Mormonesque, churchy, scary, NWO, Cult, mind-control durges that give the remaining ones a sour taste of fear in the back of their mouths, upset stomachs and panic attacks.
Why am I brining all this up??? Well why stop there??? One thing I find particularly abhorent (and further validation that "answered prayers" in the feel-good romantic sense are bogus) is how the WBT$ and Fistful Slave have hijacked yet another enjoyable benefit to being a "believer." Like all those other things, they've hijacked "answered prayers" as well! Have you all noticed the experiences in the Yearbooks and interviews on the stage at conventions have been severely crippled??? I understand the GB probably wants to steer clear of the sensational urban legend experiences that pervade our Junk folders FWD'ed to us by zealous 'Dubs (many of whom send those annoying things while the rest of us are at a meeting...check their timestamps, it's true ). But I remember a time when people would share meaningful, convincing expereinces about how their prayers were answered and they were very enjoyable to listen to while my butt was wedged in a plastic seat in a poorly climate-controlled stadium. That was like one of the only things that would get me through conventions as a bored and doubting youth (besides the drama, looking for cuties with binoculars or reading the not-meant-to-be-arousing articles on sexuality in the YPA book during the most boring talks). But now days, listen to the interviews. Browse the experiences in the Yearbooks for the last decade and what do you observe??? We used to see "evidence" of Holy Spirit rescuing the failthful from danger, certain death or some other physical calamity (scary dogs, muggers, going broke, getting lost, being arrested, chased by mobs...). Now EVERY experience ends the same way. With a lame plug for expanding the preaching work. Here's a typical example:
Bro. Testimony: "I was depressed. I'd suffered job loss, a death in the family, my wife became pregnant and I lost my managerial job of 20 years."
Bro Interviewer: "Wow, Brother Testimony! Those seem like very difficult obstacles indeed! What did you do?"
Bro. Testimony: "Well, Brother Interviewer, I did the only thing I could do. I prayed to Jehovah."
Bro. Interviewer: "Certainly! Well, did Jehovah answer your prayers?"
Bro. Testimony: "Well (*chuckle*), yes! Yes, he did! Why, just a few hours later, I was walking down the street and saw a man and a woman who appeared to be in distress! So I approached them and asked them if everything was ok and the woman said, 'No! We just found out our nephew was in a terrible accident and we aren't sure if he will make it.' So, I turned to the man and said, 'I'm heading to the convenience store, is there anything I can get you?' and they decided to walk with me. I 'bought out the opportune time' and began sharing the Truth about God with them and his promise to rid the world of all tragedies, sickness and death! They became very interested and even offered to buy my items at the store! It turns out, I was able to feed my family that night with their kind donation! Shortly after that... a BIBLE STUDY WAS STARTED AND THEY ARE WELL ON THEIR WAY TO BAPTISM."
...Yeah. Anyone catch that shameless plug? Prayers now only seem to be answered when Jah tosses an easy recruit in your lap. Overall message: WE suffer, WE pray and our "blessing" is the "privilage" of converting another vulnerable soul. PLEASE tell me the rest of you have noticed this!!! It's gotten much worse over the last 10-15 years.
That was not an actual experience I'd heard...just a typical, hypothetical example. You'll hear something close to that this summer tho, betcha!!!
whereami: i cannot understand children/animals being abused/starved/neglected and others having prayers and dreams come true --- but is this not mankind's fault because of their evil and selfishness and not taking care of and providing for the less fortunate. experiences w/mankind indicate people are so self-absorbed making a life for themself (which can be challenging), but it seems w/mankind enough is never enough (materialistically). think you are right --- but if we really followed Christ and loved our neighbor as we love ourselves --- would this evil not be eradicated. obviously, people have free will and would rather abuse/neglect children but are we incapable of caring/protecting even children. if there's a God, it would seem to me he expects us to love/care for our neighbor. it's very disheartening to me and i realize there are individuals who devote their life to caring for their neighbor --- but obviously not enough.
