are we free?

nomoreTRUTHplz

I don't mean this is as a debate, but merely an observation. I have noticed that a lot (not all) of us post and participate in topics that are nothing but arguements and debates over what should be believed. I have also been guilty of this, but just began to wonder, are we really free?

We claim that now we are free of the WTS. While we were in the org. we spent our time knocking on doors hoping to convert others. To make them see that our religion was right. That our beliefs were right. That we had (or at least the society had) all the answers.

Now we say we are free from that, but look at us. Debating most of the time over who is right and what is right. If we have learned one thing from the WTS isn't it that we should all be free to make our own decisions about our beliefs? And to do so freely without pressure from others to conform?

I think most of us are here for the same reason. Many were mistreated, abused, neglected and run over by an organization of imperfect men claiming to have god's backing. For the most part aren't we here to support each other in recovering and living somewhat "normal" lives after leaving the JWs.

I would like to propose that we "agree to disagree" and continue supporting each other.

KW13

Good question and i partly agree but..

for the fact that i can debate, that i can present arguments and that we can all go to bed at night and not feel our world is over makes the difference between this and the society.

its like a healing process, at some point we'll reach our own conclusions and/or we already have some.

i love the way things are, so long as folks are kind and reasonable and not forcing how they feel. if i don't like something i just go to google for a bit lol.

lovelylil

good points. I just left a similiar thought on another thread. I agree that we will disagree on some things. I don't mind sharing my beliefs but I need to be careful not to share it with those who just want to argue and tear down. I don't mind a good debate as long as we respect each other as a person and not try to attack them personally by insisting they are stupid or crazy for believing in something there is no proof of. They only have to prove their beliefs to themselves anyway.And I am the first to admit, I don't have all the answers. No one has all the answers.

Live, let live, and wait and see what happens. In the meantime, respect everyone and treat them the way you want to be treated.

Finally-Free

Personally I think debate is a waste of time. If I'm going to change my beliefs it will be because of my own personal research, and not because someone is more skilled at arguing than I am. I don't feel any need to coerce people into thinking my way either. I felt the same way as a JW too, and many JWs thought I gave up too easily at the doors, but if someone told me they weren't interested, I took them at their word.

W

nomoreTRUTHplz

KW, good point. The difference between this and the org. is that we CAN state our opinions without fear of being shunned.

Lovelylill, I was reading that thread and it was what prompted me to start this one. Personally I am unsure right now what to believe, but I do know that I respect everyones right to their OWN beliefs just as you do.

I just meant to say in this thread that if we start arguing about whether there IS a god or IS NOT a god, that really all we are doing is tearing apart the only support system we have, which is others who understand where we have been and what we have been through.

kid-A

Freedom is largely an illusion and that goes for all of us, regardless of our particular belief structure. Our past experiences, memories, cognitive constructs all instruct our future responses and behavioural patterns.

We are born within a particular "genetic" set of parameters within which our biology and neurophysiology must operate and these genetic boundaries cannot be changed or altered. Furthermore, there are critical "developmental windows" during infancy and early childhood wherein permanent neural networks are established and cannot be altered (or only in a very limited manner) at later stages of life.

Having said that, where freedom does exist at least in a limited sense, is in our ability to abandon pre-existing cognitive frameworks, as anyone who has left the JWs has obviously done successfully. But I would qualify even that statement because speaking as an atheist, I know that the cognitive framework laid down in my brain from my earliest exposure to watchtower teachings STILL exerts some control over how I interact with and perceive the world.

Star Moore

Very good point..

I think we are free when we realize, we don't need anyone to teach us, but let the holy spirit do it's job.

My new favorite scripture, that I never once saw, in the 26 years, I was a witness.

I John 2:27 NIV "As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit, just as it has taught you, remain in him."

So, really people have to look into themselves at what the holy spirit is teaching them.

No point in arguing, because when the holy spirit teaches that person, we are talking to, then it will be revealed.. not thru us, but from God, to the individual...

poppers

"I don't mean this is as a debate, but merely an observation. I have noticed that a lot (not all) of us post and participate in topics that are nothing but arguements and debates over what should be believed. I have also been guilty of this, but just began to wonder, are we really free?"

What a great question! I wish more people would ask this of themselves. kid-A touches something fundamental when he stated: "I know that the cognitive framework laid down in my brain from my earliest exposure to watchtower teachings STILL exerts some control over how I interact with and perceive the world." This leads to an even deeper question: Who is it that seems not to be free? Who is it that has struggles with issues of what to believe? Just what is "freedom" anyway? Such questions are the cornerstone of discovering something pure and enduring, where questions of freedom and pain dissolve.

inquirer

nomoreTRUTHplz,

What a great post! You are absolutely right! But I think people are passionate about what they believe in. This board does a good job in helping people out and exposing the WT. But there are other times we debate issues probably too much at times over things like: the divine name, trinity, creationism vs evolution, does God exists, ex JW gays and so forth. But I think we are all passionate about what we believe here. We all ultimately think that WE are right and we go into great lengths (me included) into why we feel right about such issues that are important to us.

What happens is that topics get repeated because NEW members come to the board. One person (poster a) explains why topic x is wrong and then another person (poster b) explains why they think topic x is right. MOst people will sympathize with poster a but some people (a minority of posters like myself) will side with poster b... You'll see a "flame document" for a thread because everybody has their say. This board is diverse there are many people who are NOW non-religious, or Born Again, or Atheists... some people are STILL JW'S too! So you can see why it gets so busy on here and why debates are common on here. People want a NEW point of view. People ask questions about their faith and want to shrug of JW belief and start over again.

I think it's the "way the cookie crumbles" in a lot of cases. Most people on the board are sincere and want to help others they think are mislead.

Also, this is about RELIGION. No matter what religion you are (Christianity would have to be one of the worse cases) debates are going to arise and in real life (at least in my experience) people don't talk about religion all that much and don't get "spiritually feed." They don't want to go to the library or go online and surf site after site so much because you do go into a "loop" on the Net sometimes and at times you MAY NOT get the answer... you do get that "run around" at times online. So SOME may think think maybe I'll post here and a famous message poster will come up with the answers! But of course others on the thread will give their input because there's "more than one side to the story."

jwfacts

I think the debating is good to help clarify what we should move on and believe. But you are right in that there is no need for name calling and belittling of others if they do not share our point of view.

are we free?

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