My son made me proud the other day.

lowden

My eldest son (19 in Oct') went for coffee he other day with a former associate of his who is still a JW. The conversation eventually came around to spiritual things and his friend, Matt, started firing the questions. How he felt about the faith, would he go back, did he still believe?..... and so on. My son gave noble answers to all of Matts questions and then asked some of his own. One of his queries was one that i'd had for ages but never told my son about and he asked Matt the same question. Here's the scenario:

The issue of Universal Sovereignty has just been raised (tree of knowledge and all that). Satan saying that man can 'do it' on his own, Adam and Eve saying 'up yours god' were good on our own, you have no right to rule us!!! 'OK' says god, 'have a go and see if you can go it alone'. Thus follows thousands of years of unimaginable suffering.

HANG ON A MINUTE!!!!

Scripture says hat it's impossible for god to lie....yes?

Yes

So why didn't he just say to satan....'Hey satan, you know i'm omniscient and omnipotent'

'Of course i do', says satan

'And that it's impossible for me to lie...right?'

'Yeah, what's your point god?'

'Well you're wrong satan...and so are Adam and Eve, OK? I don't need to prove ANYTHING, to you, the humans, or the angels. If i tell you that you can't do it without me then that's that!! I can't lie, it's impossible for me, i simply can't do it'.

'Now you die satan, along with the other rebels. I won't have you polluting my creation.' ZAP!!!!

So god starts again on his search for obedient humans.

In other words, there is NO ISSUE that needs to be settled if god is all powerful and can't lie. So what's with the suffering deal?

Matt couldn't answer my sons' logical reasoning. I'm glad and proud of him.

Peace

Lowden

EAGLE-1

Sweet....I told my mom that I did not like the idea of being on a chessboard involuntarily participating in a game played by superbeings.I did not ask to be here so WHY DO I HAVE TO PLAY?????

If I were born in Tibet I would be banging gongs and chanting till my lungs burned and wouldnt know the difference between a Christian and a large mouth bass.Would not even know about the big game.

Cheers to your son.

Balsam

Don't you just love it when our kids just show their freeness of speech and ask some cool questions that just leave the JW's scratching their head. My son did that to some of the JW kids at school he is going to school with. My son is disfellowshipped but the kids still talk to him. He graduates in June and loves his freedom from the cult.

Balsam

Mulan

My 5 year old grandson (he is now 9) said something very similar when his mother told him the Adam and Eve and the serpent story. He said something like "is that real, or is it just a story?" and then, "why didn't god just kill him?" His mother had no answer for that one.

Out of the mouths of babes.

Es

well done that is a great way off looking at it. I could never understand that theory that God was proving to Satan he is wrong and thats why we have to suffer etc....He is God he shouldnt have to prove anything

es

poodlehead

I am so glad that your son is not excepting thing at face value. That is so great. It is always a good thing to ask questions. Continue questioning thing!

But you know what? This is one of those subjects that actually make sense to me. I don't conside it JW' doctrine. But part of the bible. My take on this is, and you certainly don't have to agree with me is as followed.

Let's say God zaps Satan, Adam and Eve. So there is no one to question the fact that we can't make it without God. Then what happens if he makes two more people and they start saying, "No I don't want to do it your way. I want to find out if I can do it on my own." Does god zap them and so forth and so on. I know it sounds unfair to have satans influences. But I don't want to serve a god that won't allow us a second chance. Or even the chance to find out if we can make it on our own.

Hey we all came from a religion that says,"Do it my way or else." Well none of us liked that very much, that's why we are here. So a God that rules so we can't make decisions for ourselves, doesn't sound any better. That's the way I look at. But like I sayed that only my take on it. Doesn't make it right.

lovelylil

poodlehead,

I agree with your post and just want to add this one thing, that God wants us to want to obey him willingly. He gave Adam and Eve the choice.

He did not create them as robots but endowed them with free will. Just like a parent does not want their children to obey out of FEAR but rather

love and respect. It is the same with God. But there are other things involved also. Before I get into trouble, please read my disclaimer.

DISCLAIMER: The information above is meant for only those who still believe in a God. For those who do not, please disregard. Because If I have to debate that issue again, I will literally THROW UP. Thank You.

lowden

Poodlehead and Lovelylil

I think the point is that if god cannot lie, then we can't argue with him when he says 'what goes'. I sense that you miss the point of the post slightly. PERFECT creatures disobeyed! There was absolutely NO EXCUSE for this! They had to push against the grain to do this, it was apparenlty 'unnatural' for them to do wrong. There is therefore 'no argument' with god, there is nothing to prove because god cannot lie. When he says we're wrong, then we're wrong and when a perfect creature does it, it's doubly wrong. Our suffering because of what of 3 creatures decided to do is as far from justice as anything i could possibly think of.

Peace

Lowden

press any key

My problem with the JW scenario is this -

we are told that god is giving us the chance to show that we cant go it alone - we'll stuff it up

and then we're told that the whole world is in Satans hands - he is the ruler of the world.

Well which is it, are humans being given a fair chance to rule themselves or not. If Satan is ruling the world of course you're going to see murder and mayhem.

Just another nail in the JDubdum coffin.

bebu

I think that it was NOT to prove any point like that to Satan.

So god starts again on his search for obedient humans.

I wonder how many times the 'fall' would have repeated with fresh people? Infinite, I believe.

I think the long process that we are in (which unfortunately includes pain) is one that will seal off that potential forever.

bebu

PS: Nice to hear your son is asking good questions!

My son made me proud the other day.

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