Been busy for a few days and have been catching up on some posts. Welcome TR, and everyone, I sure enjoyed reading this thread. Waiting, I split my sides laughing at your "Woman" comeback.. hehe.. good one!
RCat
Feeling sorry...
by TR 43 Replies latest jw friends
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Frenchy
A few words about equality. There is a saying to this effect: “Where all men are free they are not equal, where all men are equal they are not free.”
I grew up in a poor neighbourhood in an impoverished area of an economically depressed state and raised by slaves. (The term for a white slave is a ‘sharecropper’), strike one. I was also a ‘coonass’, meaning I was of French decent. Two strikes now. I could not speak English, strike three. The greatest sin of poverty is not the lack of material necessities but rather the ignorance that is always associated with it. It has been said that being broke is a temporary financial situation whereas being poor is a state of mind… I was poor.
In those days the word ‘coonass’ had the same connotation as ‘nigger’. No difference. We drank at the same water fountains as did the Americans (The French term for what is being termed ‘whites’ here is ‘Les Americains’ meaning ‘the Americans’. BTW, it’s customary to have a look of disdain on your face when you utter those words!) and we were grudgingly permitted to use the front door just like the ‘Americans’ but little else. Perhaps we were disdained more so than the blacks because our skin pigmentation ‘demanded’ that we be given free access to their world. They hated us greatly because of our obscene mockery of what was clearly a superior people. We were the proverbial red headed stepchild which was a source of constant irritation to them. It’s no wonder that just a few decades earlier that their kind rounded up entire communities of French descendants and drove the survivors across the Sabine River into Texas. Orange, Port Arthur, and that entire area to this day has an inordinately large population of French speaking people, people driven from their homes in the swamps of Louisiana many years ago.
These are my credentials and qualifications for what I am about to say.
I grew up in a ramshackle house on a graveled street where both whites and blacks lived. At least half of my friends were black. We did not live any differently from them. We basically lived in the same type of house. One family of my black friends lived in a house that was painted, ours was not. My father worked twelve hours a day, six days a week in a service (gas) station for $25.00 per week. There were 9 of us (which included my grandparents who were now too old to take care of themselves) living in a house only slightly larger than a double garage. We later closed in the back porch so we would not have to eat our meals in the ‘front’ room. The toilet was outside. Years later, Daddy added a bathroom to the house. From time to time Mom would have to work in a café when things got too tight. She earned $15.00 a week doing that. My uncle who lived next door worked for $30.00 a week in a lumber yard and his wife took in ironing to make ends meet.
Most of my black friends’ families were on welfare. Their mothers and fathers although living together were not married and their fathers were drunks. This entitled them to government assistance. (apparently the criteria has not changed since then) Some of them worked and worked very hard but most did not. They just drank wine and whined and complained about how unfair everything was to them. I am simply stating how things were.
In school I saw the look of contempt on the faces of my schoolmates when they heard me speak and saw me in the rag tag clothes, clean and pressed, but full of patches. While the other children played at the lunch recess I worked in the cafeteria. Why? Because we could not afford the $1.00 a month per student lunch fee. I was graciously allowed to stack milk bottles and scrape the plates and haul off the garbage in exchange for my (and my brother and sisters’) lunch. I’m not sure that you can truly appreciate what that did for my ‘social’ life at school, especially in high school.
I rose above all of that. It took me a long time, however. It was not until I was well into in high school (still scraping plates and stacking bottles in the lunchroom) that I realized that, for one thing, I was just as smart as any of them and smarter than most. Slowly I gained the respect and admiration of my teachers with my respectful manner, my polite speech, and my academic aptitude. I still had the accent and the patched clothes and I was still poor. In time I gained the respect and even some admiration from ‘Les Americains’ around me. I’m not going to say ‘my peers’ because I was not then considered on par with…’Les Americains’. I did it all without any legislation or affirmative action or government program of any sort.
Not too long ago, a bill was introduced in the Louisiana legislature to officially declare ‘Cajuns’ (the polite word now for a Coonass) a minority (which they certainly are). It was defeated. That has not kept me or my kind from achieving our goals. Many more just like me have risen above the world we were born into, coped with the ridicule and contempt of our fellow man, went around the discriminatory practices of the day and made a life for ourselves …all without affirmative action.
I have a thirty-plus year perspective on my childhood. I have experienced both worlds. I remember the old one and have experienced the other one. ‘Les Americains’ thought us ignorant and inferior to them. They were right. As long as we remained ignorant we were inferior. They thought us incapable of rising above what we were and in this they were wrong. Should they have treated us any differently? What would have become of us if they had? Would we have found the strength and determination to pull ourselves out of the muck and mire of despair, ignorance, and poverty to take our place in this society? Probably not. And it was all done without affirmative action
No Cajun has ever been given a scholarship because he is Cajun. No Cajun has ever been promoted because he is a Cajun. No Cajun has ever been awarded a government contract because he was a Cajun. There is no National Association for the Advancement of Cajun People. How did they achieve what they did without all the above mentioned while others with all the aforementioned seem incapable of doing so? It’s because none of the above mentioned measures are necessary (actually they are a hinderance) for success. All it takes is initiative and perseverance and a desire to better oneself.
I’m a contractor, that’s how I earn my living. When I bid on government jobs I have to bid against minorities and women who are automatically given ‘points’ just for being that. Why? My wife is a woman and she needs to eat just like everyone else, why should I have to try harder just for the privilege of working for a living? A certain percentage of the work has to go to wormen and minority contractors, many of which are sorely underqualified for the work. As a result they do inferior work but get paid the full contract amount. Later, a ‘white’, male contractor has to go back and re-do what they did. I speak from personal experience in this regard. In the end it is the taxpayer who foot the bill for this. Where is the fairness in this arrangement? Discrimination? Absolutely. It’s against the law to discriminate against women and minorities but not against ‘white males’. On the contrary, the laws are specifically discriminatory against the ‘white males’. But you know, even with the deck stacked against me, I still manage to do quite well. I wonder why that is?
Someone once said that you cannot help someone by doing for them what they should do for themselves. A lot has been said on this thread about the ‘superiority’ of ‘whites’. I would like to ask, how did they achieve this ‘superiority’? Was it by affirmative action? By government programs that squander billions of hard earned tax dollars on people who have no appreciation of what is being done for them and never will? What made these people rise above the rest? Perhaps we should learn from them what it is that they do to excel rather than try to take away what they have earned and then condemn them for their success. Imitate rather than scorn the hands that have advanced civilization. I believe it was Abe that said that you cannot elevate yourself by lowering those around you. And that is exactly what is being attempted now.
A parting word on equality. No one really wants to be equal to everyone else nor should they. Respect, especially self-respect can never be legislated or granted, it must be earned. Until and unless that is learned, no race, creed, culture, or color, or individual will ever advance.-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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RedhorseWoman
Frenchy, while I agree with you to a great extent, the fact is that even though you had to deal with many obstacles (and I must say I admire you for utilizing the intelligence you had rather than complaining), the fact is that you had the basic equipment to get ahead (i.e. you are a white male).
Without some sort of affirmative action, women were shut out of many areas....never even given the chance to show what they could do. It didn't matter how hard a woman tried to better herself, she was considered "unable" to do "men's" work and never given the chance to prove otherwise.
I lost a job when I was 25 simply because I wouldn't "put out" for a supervisor. This was before there were laws about discrimination, so I could do nothing. I was single and supporting myself, and I was out on the street with no job not because I had done a bad job, but simply because I rebuffed a man's sexual advances. He kept his job, and he caused many other women to lose theirs until at one point there were laws against it, and one of his victims sued the company.
It's true that many people are misusing the laws. However, I do think that they're needed.
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sevenoften
...for the average worldly person as I see them going out the doors of their cookie-cutter houses and driving to work in their cookie-cutter cars- actually thinking they are getting ahead in this system.
I shake my head and think; they just don't know. Or maybe they do, but are in a dilemma similar to thousands if not millions right now. Theirs is a belief system controlled by multi-national corporations and governments. How could they let this go on? How did I let it go on? Fear. Wanting to do the right thing, but there's the fear. All or nothing.
They want me to be willing to send my son to a foreign land and die for a piece of cloth. They build obsolescence into everything I buy so I’ll have to stay in debt by buying more.
They want me to vote for liars, drug users, and adulterers to be my leaders.
I can't give enough thanks to my family for sticking with me, for other JW's sharing their experiences, several books I've read, and I'll give myself a little credit for having enough balls to act on my conscience.
As someone who was taught to be a devout patriot from infancy, the teachings of the Borg (worship of the State) were in every fiber of my being. They shaped every thought I had and every perception of myself and others.
This induced a denial about the very nature of my existence and the world that is more pervasive than any other that I can imagine. I was willing to sacrifice my life for my country. I believed the newspapers. I believed my government. I believed my church. Peer pressure forced me to participate in inane patriotic displays. My Catholic priest molested my best friends.
It took over a year for me to completely divorce my mental indoctrinations. It took countless hours of studying everything I had been taught and re-evaluating them and how they had affected me. I would still be in that process if I had not had access to the thorough, well-researched books by the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and the love of a united worldwide brotherhood. I went through many painful evenings, and yet I knew that this was a very important process, if I was to regain my life and my find my true identity. Of course, that was only a start, but it sure feels good to finally start.
I feel bad too. Driving by a church and seeing all the cars parked. Or seeing some people all dressed up in their Sunday best on an Easter egg hunt, or dressing their kids in devil suits to extort candy on Halloween, or lying to them about Santa.
Its not that I don't think what they are doing is bad, or that they shouldn't be free to do what they are doing. It’s that they never considered all sides to the story.
I feel sorry for the people that are unknowingly wasting their lives posting on boards like this one, who have returned to the vomit, who revel in the lies of this system, who are not strong enough to sacrifice even one iota of their being for the benefit of another person, who have let the world suck them back in, but who are really genuine people.
I hope that when they do realise things out there in the world aren't what they seem that they don't hurt too much.
I feel sorry for the teenagers who have ruined their lives with drugs and sexual promiscuity. I know of people who did really well in their exams and could have a good career, but they have ended up getting a crappy dogsbody job because their parents never warned them of the dangers of this system, and before they knew it, they were Borg drones in a dead-end job, or else on the dole.
I hate to brag, but I have one helluva great family. My JW wife stood by me for ten years when I was drinking, fooling around , and a Baptist deacon, when she could have left.
Yeaaaah Baby! -
RedhorseWoman
Ah, yes, sevenoften....and now you'll lay down your life for a publishing company. Oh, yeah.....great progess there.
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Simon
Theirs is a belief system controlled by multi-national corporations and governments. How could they let this go on? How did I let it go on? Fear. Wanting to do the right thing, but there's the fear. All or nothing.
Just like the WTBSThey want me to be willing to send my son to a foreign land and die for a piece of cloth.
How about dying for a 25c party card...or because someone has made up a rule about blood?They build obsolescence into everything I buy so I’ll have to stay in debt by buying more.
Is that like JW doctrines? They change them so you need to keep buying more magazines...They want me to vote for liars, drug users, and adulterers to be my leaders.
No...that's what you get when you don't voteI can't give enough thanks to my family for sticking with me, for other JW's sharing their experiences, several books I've read, and I'll give myself a little credit for having enough balls to act on my conscience.
I agree - family are everythingAs someone who was taught to be a devout patriot from infancy, the teachings of the Borg (worship of the State) were in every fiber of my being. They shaped every thought I had and every perception of myself and others.
Exactly like beeing brought up as a JW...This induced a denial about the very nature of my existence and the world that is more pervasive than any other that I can imagine. I was willing to sacrifice my life for my country. I believed the newspapers. I believed my government. I believed my church. Peer pressure forced me to participate in inane patriotic displays. My Catholic priest molested my best friends.
This could be re-written by others as:
This induced a denial about the very nature of my existence and the world that is more pervasive than any other that I can imagine. I was willing to sacrifice my life for my religion. I believed the watchtower. I believed my governing body. I believed my church. Peer pressure forced me to participate in inane ritualistic displays. My local elder molested my best friends.I feel bad too. Driving by a church and seeing all the cars parked. Or seeing some people all dressed up in their Sunday best on an Easter egg hunt, or dressing their kids in devil suits to extort candy on Halloween, or lying to them about Santa.
I feel bad seeing kids dragged round knocking on doors. At least they have fun at easter / xmas / halloween.Its not that I don't think what they are doing is bad, or that they shouldn't be free to do what they are doing. It’s that they never considered all sides to the story.
Just let me get this straight...you're arguing that JWs have considered all sides of the story?!I feel sorry for the people that are unknowingly wasting their lives posting on boards like this one, who have returned to the vomit, who revel in the lies of this system, who are not strong enough to sacrifice even one iota of their being for the benefit of another person, who have let the world suck them back in, but who are really genuine people.
You'll wake up one day...a lot of people who *really* care for others are NOT in "the truth". What charitable works do the witnesses do?I hope that when they do realise things out there in the world aren't what they seem that they don't hurt too much.
Things certainly aren't as bad as the FDS make outI feel sorry for the teenagers who have ruined their lives with drugs and sexual promiscuity. I know of people who did really well in their exams and could have a good career, but they have ended up getting a crappy dogsbody job because their parents never warned them of the dangers of this system, and before they knew it, they were Borg drones in a dead-end job, or else on the dole.
I feel sorry for people who have ruined their lives too. How about those in crappy dogsbody jobs because they were denied the chance of following a good education and career becuase of listening to the WatchTower?I hate to brag, but I have one helluva great family. My JW wife stood by me for ten years when I was drinking, fooling around , and a Baptist deacon, when she could have left.
I hope she doesn't have to 'stand by you' through ten years in the borg.- Simon
Edited by - Simon on 24 October 2000 17:48:18
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Frenchy
Hey Simon, good job on that reply!
Dear Red,
I'm one of those guys that thinks women ought have equal access to the podium at the local K.H. I believe that if a woman is doing the same job as I am that she should get the same pay, provided that she isdoing the same job. I have a wife and two daughters and uncategorically condemn any sort of sexual harrassment. I believe there should be laws to protect women from that. There is a great difference between anti-discriminatory laws and affirmative action, however. The latter is discrimination, only in a different direction.
If I had been around when that guy made a pass at you I would have punched him in the nose. Affirmative action will not ever prevent that from happening. What affirmative action will do is give someone else the job for which you better qualified.
-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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Frenchy
Sevenoften:
Your name is only one number off of being a really nice name. At least the name of a really nice person.
First let me agree with you that this world and its leaders are a far cry from what it and they should be. Let me also agree with you that there are many people out there with little or no hope. Let me assure you, however, that there are a great number of people out there that are very happy and content and filled with hope. Just talk to them openly and honestly and ask yourself: Are the majority of the ‘worldly’ people that you know really without hope or morals as you have been conditioned to believe?
It’s true that many sons (and now daughters also) have been sacrificed on the altar of war and I personally do not like it one bit. My sister-in-law was sacrificed on the altar of a man-made rule that was later rescinded. She was told that she could not accept a bone marrow transplant. That same year the rule was changed. I did not like that one bit either.
You will have to buy items with built in obsolescence regardless of your religious persuasion so this has nothing to do with what you are trying to accomplish here.
You are asked to but not forced to vote. You will not be shunned nor ignored by your government for not doing so. You will be shunned by your organization for exercising your free will in this instance. Your government will allow you to print and distribute literature (and shout it from the housetops if you wish) about the evils of carrying a gun. They will at the same time promptly send out an officer with a gun to protect you when you call for it. The officer will not ask you your philosophy on violence as he risks his life to save yours. After the smoke clears and he’s (or she) done his/her job your government will allow you to go on condemning them for doing what you called them for in the first place.
And I can appreciate your sentiments: “I can't give enough thanks to my family for sticking with me,” Just be sure that you never change your mind and violate any of the rules because you will see just how far from you they can stand.I was willing to sacrifice my life for my country. I believed the newspapers. I believed my government. I believed my church. Peer pressure forced me to participate in inane patriotic displays. My Catholic priest molested my best friends.
You were very gullible to believe everything you heard. Perhaps you’re older now and are more discriminate in your acceptance of what you hear. Please apply this to everything and everybody that you come in contact with. The religion with which you are now associated has likewise perpetrated a few deceptions. Some of its elders have also molested children. Peer pressure within the congregation will also cause you to do some pretty silly things.
It took over a year for me to completely divorce my mental indoctrinations. It took countless hours of studying everything I had been taught and re-evaluating them and how they had affected me.
How I envy you. It’s taking me much longer to get rid of the indoctrination that I was subjected to for over thirty years.
I went through many painful evenings, and yet I knew that this was a very important process, if I was to regain my life and my find my true identity. Of course, that was only a start, but it sure feels good to finally start.
Very similar to what I am feeling now. You can’t imagine what it feels like to read a Scripture and actually be able to think about it rather than run to a reference to see what someone else has decided that it means.
I feel bad too. Driving by a church and seeing all the cars parked. Or seeing some people all dressed up in their Sunday best on an Easter egg hunt, or dressing their kids in devil suits to extort candy on Halloween, or lying to them about Santa. Its not that I don't think what they are doing is bad, or that they shouldn't be free to do what they are doing. It’s that they never considered all sides to the story.
I agree with you on that one too. Personally I don’t hunt for Easter eggs or go trick or treating. One word of caution, however. Don’t ever tell the person studying with you or one of the elders that you don’t think what they are doing is bad. You will be promptly ‘corrected’ on the matter. And remember that while you may think that they should be free to do what they are doing, your religion does not share your views. They will not allow you that freedom…at all.
I hope that when they do realise things out there in the world aren't what they seem that they don't hurt too much.
Actually, most people ‘out there’ have a very realistic view of the world in which they live. They don’t like every aspect of it but they try to do the best they can to the extent that they can to make it better. They don’t just blame everything on the devil and wait for the new world before they start living. They know that God put them in this world at this time and they make the best of it.
I feel sorry for the teenagers who have ruined their lives with drugs and sexual promiscuity. I know of people who did really well in their exams and could have a good career, but they have ended up getting a crappy dogsbody job because their parents never warned them of the dangers of this system, and before they knew it, they were Borg drones in a dead-end job, or else on the dole.
Yes, sadly that is true. We have had quite a few teenagers in the small congregation where I have attended for many years. One is dying now of a terrible disease because of a promiscuous life style. His father was and still is an elder. That boy’s sister is so notorious for her conduct that no decent person will have anything to do with her. Another died of a drug overdose about a year ago. His father is the Presiding Overseer of a neigboring congregation. The former presiding overseer’s daughter was disfellowshipped for fornication. One of the elders’ (he didn’t want to work and depended on her for income) wives left him and was promptly disfellowshipped for adultery. In one particular family, six of the six children got involved in immorality. Only one is now attending the meetings. In yet another family, none of the children are now attending and one has become a Pentecostal preacher. Our congregation may not (I hope not) be typical but I gave a talk once on the Service Meeting about keeping our children ‘in the truth’. I estimated that 75% of our youths went ‘bad’. That is a high percentage even for the ‘world’. I’m not saying that they went bad because of their religion but they went bad in spite of it. It was not able to protect them at all. It did them no good.
I’m happy to hear that you appreciate your family. You should. I know of a woman who stood by her husband for over thirty five years. He was an elder and a drunk. I know of another sister who stood by her elder husband for forty years. He studied with our family and was the Congregation Book Study conductor. He was a wife beater.
I served as an elder for many years. I have learned that people will be people wherever they are and whatever they may call themselves. My best to you and your family.-Seen it all, done it all, can't remember most of it-
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AhHah
Seven Often (but sometimes six - a man's number?),
Considering my kind response to another of your posts, I am a little surprised that you chose to plagiarize my post on this thread (without a quote), and then change my words around to suit your point.
Are you not capable of an original thought?
When I read posts such as yours, I realize why there will always be persons who will support cults. The desire to believe someone who makes grandiose promises to solve all their problems, is attractive to some, even though in exchange they will give unquestioning loyalty and let others do their thinking.
This is how people have been manipulated by others throughout human history. Eventually, of course, the dream fails to materialize, setting the stage for the next smooth talker, who tells people exactly want they want to hear.
The evidence for the deception and self-serving, ever-changing doctrines of the WT Society is clear, and will continue to be grow. If some choose to believe them anyway, that is their priviledge. But make no mistake, there will always be a very high price to pay.
Edited by - AhHah on 24 October 2000 22:23:43
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Grunt
Thanks to all for the effort put into a lot of good posts. I sure enjoyed them. I would like to point out something to one of the ladies, black men could vote before white women, it seemed in one post it indicated otherwise. Just thought you might want to have another shot to fire. Frenchy, you and I have some geography in common. I love your part of the world, and miss it. I spent a lot of happy days in Port Sulphur,LA, Lake Charles, Orange, Beaumont and Port Arthur. I used to work a sales route in Texas and then worked a day job in Port Sulphur. I gained a lot of weight, learned to eat a lot of stuff I didn't think I would and made a lot of great friends. The Cajuns I knew (Coon-Asses) were proud of it and a lot had the raccoon car-tags with him looking over his shoulder and showing his namesake. They also liked the bumper sticker "suck the heads and eat the tails!" from their practices with crawfish, I hope! Some of the Cajuns I worked with would have passed for black, some would have passed for white, some would have passed for hispanic. The difference was not in color but in culture, language and such. I got a kick out of the sentence structure, asking a question by the high tone and a yeah at the end of a sentence, like, "Mr. Jones, I can take a break, Yeah???" Like I said, I still miss it and still have a couple of friends there that can borrow anything I have anytime they need it. Good people.
As for discrimination, I think it has, does, and will exist. Some of the most discrimnatory people are the minorities, maybe it is a defense mechanism, as in Frenchy's description of the facial expression when saying "Les Americains" (I hope I quoted that correctly) and the attitudes of some blacks towards Jews, Koreans, whites and even other blacks with different skin colorations. (a pardon is asked of Chris Rock here as he said in his book while denouncing Farakahn, "Black people don't break white people up into categories like Jews and Irish, they hate ALL white people!") As for women, wow, I have heard so many women make demeaning comments about other women. Having been married to the same woman for decades and worked around women for many years, I can tell you with some shame, that sometimes I hesitated to defend the woman being demeaned for fear my motives might be questioned! I don't think a woman is a bad person just because of short skirts, low cut blouses or tight dresses. I find that I usually let critical comments of that nature pass though. Now if they were being criticised for their race or religion, I would say a word in defense, it really is a double standard.
Like Frenchy, I would never stand by and see any woman harassed or mistreated on the job. I wish women would demand more from their relationships and not allow themselves to be abused. My wife sure doesn't nor did my mom. I don't think it was ever an issue. We were always trying to do the same thing, pay the bills and be good parents, and be good to each other. I think living together instead of marriage has taken a lot away from the women who do this, and from their children.
See ya!