by crazies 129 Replies latest watchtower bible
So in light of Leo's post (thanks, btw. It took me about 4 repeat readings but I finally got it!) I guess the question to ask then is,
Is the 2520 days representative of seven years or is it literally 2520 consecutive days?
Representative of seven years? In other words, representative of 2556.75 consecutive days? Then why is it applied by the Society as a literal 2520 consecutive years?
So in light of Leo's post (thanks, btw. It took me about 4 repeat readings but I finally got it!) I guess the question to ask then is,Is the 2520 days representative of seven years or is it literally 2520 consecutive days?
Representative of seven years? In other words, representative of 2556.75 consecutive days? Then why is it applied by the Society as a literal 2520 consecutive years?
M.J...As you know, there is no stated length of 2,520 days in the Bible. There are the lengths of 1,290 and 1,335 days in Daniel, and the 1,260 days in Revelation, which both tally the length of a period by counting only monthly days. In the case of Daniel, the period of "a time, times, and half a time" in 7:25 (equivalent to the "half-week" in ch. 9, in which a week of years is a sabbatical period) is associated with the 1,290 and 1,335 days of ch. 12, but these latter two durations add in an extra month and month and a half for further events to happen after the conclusion of the seventieth sabbatical cycle. These durations are transparently adding together solar months without regard to the extramonthly days that figure in the yearly reckoning, instead of the monthly reckoning (i.e. the equinoxes and solstices). Only in ch. 8 of Daniel do we find a reckoning of consecutive days (or rather, of the two Tamid sacrifices held twice a day everyday), but this was of only a portion of the 3 1/2 years. In the Priestly document of the Pentateuch, Daniel (and Revelation in imitation), and the "Book of Luminaries" of 1 Enoch, the solstices and equinoxes were not included in the months....they stand in between the seasons (each season containing three 30-day months), as intercalary indicators of the seasons, such that the year would have the following format: 1 + (30 + 30 + 30) + 1 + (30 + 30 + 30) + 1 + (30 + 30 + 30) + 1 + (30 + 30 + 30) = 364 days. This calendar was sabbatical such there would be 52 weeks per year (364 / 7 = 52), with the sabbaths and festivals falling on the same day of the week each year. By the time of the second century BC, the solar calendar used by the author of Jubilees and the Qumran community began to include these extramonthly days within the monthly reckoning, such that each season would be 30 + 30+ 31. Since the Society utilizes Daniel and Revelation to invent their period of 2,520 days, a period of "seven times" if at all double the length of the 3 1/2 "times" of Daniel should similarly include these extramonthly days if they want to spell out the actual length of the period. Seven times in the Danielic solar calendar would be 360 x 7 = 2,520 days + 28 days (i.e. 4 extra days x 7) + 7 days (the extra week added in at the end of a sabbatical cycle, so that the spring equinox would fall on the right day) = 2,555 days.
The Society of course is totally unaware of the dynamics of the ancient solar calendar, knowing only of the lunar calendar (which is the basis of the modern Jewish calendar). They believe that the 360-day year was a special "prophetic calendar" or a rough abstraction of the alternating 29-day, 30-day lunar calendar, but this is just ignorance of ancient Jewish calendrical practices. The reality was that this was a sabbatical priestly calendar and thus had to amount to 364 consecutive days each year, so that the year would have an even number of 52 weeks. Those 4 extra days were included within the year, but not counted in the monthly count, which had even 30-day months, since these were special days heralding the seasons.
Very enlightening.
In the case of Daniel, the period of "a time, times, and half a time" in 7:25 (equivalent to the "half-week" in ch. 9, in which a week of years is a sabbatical period) is associated with the 1,290 and 1,335 days of ch. 12, but these latter two durations add in an extra month and month and a half for further events to happen after the conclusion of the seventieth sabbatical cycle.
I don't quite understand what you mean by the extra month / month and a half tacked on to the 3.5 years, yielding 1,290 & 1,335 days and what this has to do with the conclusion of the 70th sabbatical cycle? I'm assuming this is the 70 "weeks" prophecy? Pls. excuse my rustiness on the prophecies...
I don't quite understand what you mean by the extra month / month and a half tacked on to the 3.5 years, yielding 1,290 & 1,335 days and what this has to do with the conclusion of the 70th sabbatical cycle? I'm assuming this is the 70 "weeks" prophecy? Pls. excuse my rustiness on the prophecies...
I mentioned the 1,290 and 1,335-day periods from Daniel 12 because these are related to the "time, times, and half a time" of 7:25 (which is utilized in Revelation 11:2, 12:14, the proof-text the Society uses to interpret the "seven times" of ch. 4 as double the length of the 3 1/2 times of Daniel and Revelation) and the "one-half week" of 9:27, and because they reflect the use of the Zadokite solar calendar (as does Daniel 6:8, 13, 10:4). In fact, the reference to Antiochus IV (the "little horn") changing the "times and seasons" in 7:25 probably refers to the replacement of the priestly solar calendar with the Seleucid lunar calendar (an event that lies behind the references in 1 Maccabees 1:58-59, 2 Maccabees 6:6-7). In fact, several of the Dead Sea Scrolls make reference to the sacred feasts occurring at the wrong times (cf. QS 1:11-15; 4Q266; 4Q268), and 2 Maccabees 1:9 presents Hannukah as the Feast of Tabernacles "in the month of Kislev".
There have been many guesses about why the 1,290 and 1,335 days exceed 3 1/2 years in the critical literature. The most popular idea is that when the 3 1/2 years elapsed, the predictions were unfulfilled and these were attempts to lengthen out the time. I personally now find this theory to be unlikely having read the latest work by Qumran scholars. The main observation is that different things were expected at the end of the 3 1/2 years, 1,290 days, and the 1,335 days. One rather attractive solution is that the 3 1/2 years were conceived as ending on the spring equinox (having begun on the autumn equinox of 168 BC, around the time when Antiochus began his persecution), which marked the end of the 70th week and the end of the period of divine punishment on the Jews (as described in ch. 9). Recall 9:27 which assigns to this 3 1/2-year period the prohibition of the Tamid and the installation of the abomination in its place. Then an additional 30 days would elapse for the month of Passover (to complete 1,290 days) and then 1 1/2 more months are added to reach the 15th day of the third month, the very day of the Feast of Weeks (Shevuot) in the solar calendar on which the covenant would be reaffirmed (to complete the 1,335 days). This would be the appropriate day for the blessings referred to in 12:12-13 to occur, with loyalty to the Torah reaffirmed and God's kingdom restored in the land. Those blessed would be those who adhered to the covenant or those who were martyred for not forsaking the covenant (cf. 11:22, 28, 30, 33-35), while those who "forsook the covenant" (11:30, 32) would be handed over to "everlasting contempt" (12:2). This explanation is the most attractive and sensible I've yet seen, but of course no one knows for sure the meaning between the 1,290 and 1,335 days.
Here is a portion of the solar calendar (from David Jackson's book Enochic Judaism), which I think will help explain what I described:
Note that all the months are 30 days long. In the reckoning used at Qumran and in Jubilees, the summer solstice here is counted as the 31st day of the third month (Sivan). In the older Zadokite calendar used in 1 Enoch, Daniel, and the Priestly code in the Pentateuch (e.g. in Genesis 8), this would not have counted within the month of Sivan but instead lay in between the months of Sivan and Tammuz as a special marker of the season. Thus, in the older material of 1 Enoch, it was not even counted as a day and the year counted 360 days total since the equinoxes and solstices counted as seasonal markers rather than monthly days.
According to the hypothesis of Boccaccini, the 3 1/2 years of Daniel (= 1,260 days) ended on the spring equinox and 30 days followed from there for the month of Nisan (during which Passover would occur), to complete 1,290 days. Then there would be an additional 1 1/2 months to cover the length of time from Iyyar 1 to Sivan 15, and Sivan 15 ... the day the 1,335 days were completed ... was the Feast of Weeks which had religious significance with respect to the covenant that was the measure of faithfulness during the persecution, and the "blessings" mentioned in ch. 12 with respect to the completion of the 1,335 days is almost certainly the blessings of the resurrection to everlasting life mentioned in the same chapter.
Note that the year begins on a Wednesday. This was related to the Priestly view of creation in Genesis, that it wasn't until the fourth day that the sun and moon were created, setting the rhythm of time that the calendar is based on. Since God rested on the 7th day, and since this was the Sabbath, the 4th day had to have been a Wednesday.
Also note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shavuot
Ah... 'scholar' is back. How refreshing. Not.
You have never once furnished any 'proof' for 607 and have not properly responded to the many factors that indicate against it. After your long absence, I figured maybe you'd realised that you were wrong and had given up, but alas you're still clinging to your treasured falsehood.
Sympathetically,
Jeffro.
Jeffro
Yes, I am back with a vengeance for the time being as I have discovered new research vindicating the interpretation of the seventy years by the celebrated WT scholars. I have indded furnished ample proof for the illustrious date of 607 but you simply choose to ignore the facts of the matter. By the way, you have not posted any evidence for your proposed date or dates of 587 or 586 as I can reply likewise.
I have not given up at all and it is you that is a slave to falsehood because your understanding of the seventy years id not universally accepted by scholars. When you have some concensus on the seventy years within scholarship that would be the time for boasting and not before.
scholar JW
Yes, I am back with a vengeance for the time being as I have discovered new research vindicating the interpretation of the seventy years by the celebrated WT scholars. I have indded furnished ample proof for the illustrious date of 607
You`re back with a vengeance,and you have some new shit? Well, don`t be such a teaser...let`s see your proof now Scholar, I know that there are lots of people here who would like to discuss it with you. And while you`re at it, present the babylonian king-list according to the Society, which you boasted so much about some months ago...
God, even I remember scholar!
*kicking back on my settee with some popcorn to watch the fun and games*
SO few Christians, so many lions...
