Following on from my last question I put together a quick list to give you an idea of what I was on about - where would you place your beliefs at now?
Pure Mormon Claims Not Acceptable To Non-Mormons: Authority From God, Prophet, Priesthood, New Scripture, Temple, Baptism For Dead, Destiny of Man
Mormon Doctrines Shared By Some Non-Mormons Christians: Non-Trinitarian, Prophecy, Gifts of Spirit
Mormon Common Ground With Most Christianity: Jesus, God, Creation, Bible, ten commandments
Mormon Common Beliefs with common society beliefs: Family values as espoused by right wing christianity, respect of law, punishment of wrongdoers
Beliefs common with most: Honesty, integrity, duty, patriotism, hope, search for happiness, love.
P.S. Its my list and its not meant to be an invitation to debate the nature of the 'Mormon Jesus' or whether most people would consider themselves as believers in patriotism :P
How a JW was instrumental in deconverting me from Mormonism
by Noggin 20 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
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Qcmbr
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Noggin
Hi there!
So, you'd like more info... I can do that! Most of what I have been through is on my website at www.mrr1968.com. Please, if you stop by feel free to sign the guest book at the top left hand of the main page.
I jettisoned the concept of religion down the rabbit hole of discovery. I do not wish to offend the theists on this board so I say that though I might cordially challenge the existence of a god, or give license that a god may exist as in a remote possibility, I personally do not believe in any god. I am part secular humanist. I am mostly a non theist... and **fingernails on the chalkboard** a soft atheist. But definately not agnostic. I used to be an "agnostic atheist" but that was too nambsy pambsy. I am on my first year as a non theist. After going full tilt with the full monty atheist suit on, I found that it appeared to be kind of just as dogmatic as the theist suit so I backed off.
I am married to a devout Mormon. So this backing off has served our household well. I do not know if there is one god or three gods or if the god concept is comprised of a 14 billion year old three lined algorithm that has set things in motion but since long expired. I have shirked the controlling tactics and am happier than I have ever been.
Genesis asked:
1- Do your study on religions (and cults) worthed it ? It seemed to be very interesting (especially in non Judeo Christian faith like Eckankar and Scientology).
I had to do that. I had to study the top One and Only True Religions of the world. See, it's that old BS detector. It was so easy for me to see that the JW's were controlling it's general membership. I easily dismissed this religion as bunk. Yet I struggled so terribly, I even agonized over the doom that awaited me if I left Mormonism. Studying the other religions and rubbing shoulders with them and having them laugh easily about the Truth claims of Mormonism made it easier for me to see the bigger picture of how mind control really works. They all so easily dismissed Mormonism. Without even a care. And here I was angstifying over it. Then I noted how angstified some of the fence sitting JW's were about leaving the WTS. Such confliction! Just like ME with Mormonism! It was a HUGE eye opener.
My most recent foray was Scientology. I attended a meeting and did everything except go into a group auditing session. That experience is on my website under "My brush with other religions". It was mind blowing to see these people so wrapped up in the Scientology dogma. I am sure it works for them. It did not work for me. Investigating other religions provided the stark contrast I needed to finally exit. It took me 7 years off and on.
2-You seemed to still believe things that you have gathered from numerous cults (like Astral Projections and Astral travels), how do you put all that in one explanation ?
When I studied with Eckankar, I read many books, and met privately with a 5th level initiate (that's kind of high up). I did their HU chant over and over in an attempt to tap into the sound and light current, and even tried to leave my body. I had an experience real enough to convince me that they probably do believe that they travel outside their bodies. In fact, many ex-Eckists who leave Eckankar become staunch Christians and never deny that they left their bodies in meditation. They just put the Christian spin on it that whoever leads them around as their spirit guides on the astral plane is not a enlightened holy being as the Eck says... but truly a devil. I also have read a few scientific journals that are now delving into the various parts of the brain. When certain parts are physically prodded or poked or bathed in certain chemicals, the patient reports out of body experiences.
Pretty interesting. It neither proves or disproves any religion to me though.
3- Are you now an atheist or you still believe in something higher ?
I still attend the Mormon church about twice a month with my devout wife. I do not partake in any ritual or sustaining votes of officers. I do not wear a tie anymore. I attend the first hour and leave. I try to be cordial and friendly but I wish to not associate with them past that. It has been engrained in me from birth that there is a higher power. I can't help but recognize the possibility that something more intelligent could have very well created me. When I go to the church with my wife I try to feel reverence for that possibility. It doesn't kill me to do it. However, I will not allow myself to worship it. I think it is a good idea to engage in introspection a couple times a month about one's place in the Universe. I use this time to do that. Plus it gives my wife the satisfaction of having a family church experience a couple times a month (we have two small children).
Qcmbr wrote:
What do you believe now? Do you reject all the supposed truth of Mormonism or just parts of it?
I reject all of Mormonism. I no longer even try the soft approach in trying to see the "good fruit" on the Mormon tree. It is a social virus. My kids will read the best books and I will engage them in thought provoking questions about life and existential matters. I want them to grow up tolerant of other religions, but to have a healthy grounding to reality. If in the end they choose to worship as their mother does, I hope that I will have behaved in such a manner that our relationship will not be compromised. They are everything to me. I hope that answered your question Qcmbr?
Noggin
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Qcmbr
Hi Noggin, thanks for replying - I find your experience closer to my heart than (forgive me!) most other posters on this board who have only a passing experience of the LDS world. I try to look at people as explorers who are trying a part of life and while I may not like what they do I respect the effort they are making to 'test' some circumstances and then as I converse with them I can gain insight into what would happen if I took their path. Your experiences are a step away from mine as you started where I am and your conclusions are a potential answer to my own cogitations (however, that isn't what I've found thus far - quite the opposite but I need to keep the possibility open to be as fair as possible.)
If the LDS faith is wrong then it was based on a lie about a religious experience - a barefaced, scam of scams (with no obvious benefactor but that's another issue)that is rotten at the core. Most other main christian religions I've seen seem based upon good people being dissatisfied with an existing 'corruption' and putting forward an answer to that but few dare claim to have seen God and this is the point of success or failure of the whole LDS project either he did or didn't see God. If he did the Lds church with all its wierd and wonderful stuff is true otherwise its just another group of good people pointlessly worshipping.
The question for me(and all religion believers if I may be so bold) is to pass the Santa Claus test - i.e. As a child I was told something that was possible but implausible (fat man delivers presents to billions of people via unauthorised access to homes at night and using a flying sledge.) and I wanted to believe it badly, it felt emotionally charged and exciting at christmas time it just had to be true. This belief had rituals to 'make it work' involving letters to Santa, milk for Rudolph, being a good boy and never questioning the 'truth'. People I respected and trusted intimately professed these beliefs and short of extra knowledge I was forced to accept, I wanted to accept - after all presents appeared every year and I didn't want to jeopardise my obvious good standing with Santa. Then came the test - the discovery of logical flaws (poor children got less at Christmas - Santa seemed to get more generous for each generation, why was Santa white?, how did Santa have keys for each house?, why where there lots of imposters all claiming to be him in every shopping centre?.) At some point the weight of evidence tipped to there being no Santa and parents being the true source of presents. Each believer in religion faces a similar test with one important exception - there is a lot more at stake than presents and getting it wrong has a tremendous personal cost (and depending upon where we think we are in the test is to what we think the cost is.) -
Rev. Moon
Il est tellement très regrettable que vous n'ayez pas découvert l'église vraie et la religion vraie, celle laquelle bon Dieu approuve. Cette église et cette religion sont le culte de moi pour moi suis extrêmement dignes de tous les culte et éloge. Je ne suis pas mort pour vos péchés, mais j'ai couru tout le chemin vers le magasin de vous acheter une certaine sucrerie de chocolat sucré.
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LittleToe
So, Qcmbr, as a LDS and former missionary like our friend Noggin, have you managed to pass the Santa test?
I thought of you as soon as I started reading his experience, and wondered what you might make of it, given that you have similar backgrounds.
Noggin:Nice to make your acquaintence.
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Noggin
Rev Moon
Do you do that often? Assume that all speak french? That's new. Or maybe I missed that everyone but me speaks french here. Pero, quizas Ud. no habla engles y esto es la unica manera de que Ud. puede comunicarse con esta forum. No importa. Que tenga un buen dia.
Yeah, that probably didn't help... uh, I hope you weren't cryptically calling me a horses patoot
Noggin
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greendawn
It's interesting how the member of one cult helped the member of another cult see the truth. In fact the JWs also need to be helped to see the truth about their very own FDS.
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Noggin
Qcmbr wrote:
Each believer in religion faces a similar test with one important exception - there is a lot more at stake than presents and getting it wrong has a tremendous personal cost (and depending upon where we think we are in the test is to what we think the cost is.)
I am glad you responded, Qcmbr. I have to say that for me, it came down to whether or not I could trust Joseph Smith. How reliable was he? Would I pledge a lifetime commitment to his ideology if he were the current prophet today doing the types of things he did back in the 19th century? Could he really translate ancient documents? Why is the Book of Abraham controversial? What does that say about Joseph Smith? What was the depth and breadth of the polygamy movement? Did Smith ever lie about that? Did he really start a bank (in the name of the lord) on speculative circumstances that caused many of the early saints to lose their life savings? Did he really require the saints to turn in the deeds of their properties in Nauvoo and then later sell it all off for himself at absorbant profits?
There was the primer. It took 7 years of anguishing study pouring over documents and literature. These past two final years I concentrated soley on Mormon church produced materials like Journal of Discourses, Book of Abraham and D&C 132 for starters. The Millenial Star and history of the church was insightful too. There is enough there to cause the solid questions to emerge but one has to be willing to see that the Mormon church has not been forthright with their depiction of their history.
For me, it also came down to this:
A) If the Mormon church was not true, would I want to know it (I would but some, like my devout wife do not wish to know)
B) If the Mormon church was not true, HOW would I know it?
Certainly not from lapping up every sacrament meeting talk or home teaching visit. I am horrified with the amount of grossly misrepresented historicals getting burped up over the pulpit practically each time I attend. I would also not know it from what the church broadcasts in general conference twice a year. That is completely sanitized. I'll leave it at that. I am not here to convince you in any way shape or form. Just offering my deconversion world up for public consumption. The parallels between Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons are so similar in the deconversion process!
Noggin
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Qcmbr
Don't be offended by my 'poetic'(pathetic) style below if your overweight!!! I'm tubby too.
Hi LT - did I pass the Santa Clause test? No ..and yes. To me belief is like love - sometimes its easy come easy go but its very rarely static - its a manifestation of an inner you. When I do 'what I should' read, pray etc.. my belief is pretty rock solid and I am amazed that those around me seek things that don't seem 'smart' (like a gym fanatic looking at overweight people:) then when days come when I find myself breaking standards and rules, when I spend time being ultra analytical and philosophical I find myself as the fat man looking through the gym window and cursing the joggers wondering why they spend so much effort getting nowhere fast. The plain fact is that thus far in life , right now, I fight a daily battle to believe - one which requires that I expose myself to the counter-argument otherwise why fight. There is an element of radicalism that still stirs my soul like no other and I know that - for me- if the LDS church where ever to slip from my worldview as the only true church - I would never join another christian church because they hold nothing for me in comparison to what I lose if I were to leave the LDS. I enjoy the keeness that exclusivity brings and I find it stimulating to mentally battle for the truth as I see it.
I have spent the last few months far away from this forum engaged in a lot of study and thus far several basic tenements of my belief are in utter ruin while some others are the strongest they have ever been. These are interesting times for this vegetable.
Noggin - its always interesting to find someone - especially an ex- missionary - who has the courage to choose another path. -
fullofdoubtnow
Hi Noggin, and welcome to the board. I enjoyed your story, thanks for sharing.