Conversation with friend leads to despair

under_believer

My status is "fading but still sort of in." I don't believe any of it anymore.
I just had a long conversation with a very old friend of mine who is "weak," as in he doesn't preach, and he doesn't make many of the meetings. He still believes everything, though... he's just "weak." The elders are constantly on his case about meeting attendance and that is how the conversation started... he was complaining about that. I saw an opportunity to talk to him about it.
I told him that the lack of love is the main thing that bothers me--that it's an identifying mark, and I don't see it. He said the elders sometimes make mistakes, but that overall the love was still there. He said he truly feels a warm, loving feeling when he goes into the Hall. He said that when he makes the meetings he really enjoys them.
I asked him what he enjoys about them--he said he really dislikes his life, having to work so hard to support his family, and the reminder of the promises God holds out, and the "spiritual food" that he needs that gives him a lift. When I said the constant repetition really bores me and makes it hard for me, he said that a lot of it is stuff he didn't remember and he really appreciates it.
I asked him if he really thought the Society was God's Channel, his one Organization that He guides. He said... probably, because look at the org: It is ungreedy, it is so organized, it relies so heavily on the Bible, there is no other org like it, so it must be God's org.
I asked him why he needs an org--he said God's always had one, and also because of the things I mentioned before--the things he gets out of going there. The reinforcement of the promises, the warm feeling, the "spiritual instruction." There was also a strong component of not being able to know right from wrong, i.e. not having a moral compass, and not staying on the straight and narrow, and also he'd never read the Bible if he didn't go.
We argued for a while about whether God had an "organization" in the time of the Israelites. He maintains that the priesthood was a class that people looked to for guidance, based on the evidence of the people coming to Aaron to help build the calf, supposedly that was proof that the priests were leaders. He even said "they would go to the priests to get somebody stoned who needed it." I asked him for proof of that. I pointed out that there wasn't even a temple for like 400 years after they entered the promised land... When I backed him into a corner on that, he became angry and lashed out at me, saying I thought I was so much smarter than everyone else, that I don't believe in anything, that I argue everything in the Bible.
In the end, I just went away very saddened and on the verge of despair. He is one of my very best friends, and to see him like that... and not be able to do anything for him... and to face the prospect of losing him.
But what really left me numb was the fact that he's just like my wife. She is perhaps a bit "stronger" than he is, but their minds work a lot alike, and I was really hoping to get her out along with me. I love her very much. And while I think she'd probably stick with me if I "fell out," even if she "stayed in," because she's very loyal and we have a relatively good marriage... I was kind of using this conversation as a practice session. To see all of my reality-based arguments and things just go out the window... to see nothing work on this guy at all... to see the iron-solid strength of his faith, even when he's being harassed by his elders... it just brought me to despair as to whether I'd ever be able to help anyone, especially my wife, my dear wife.

Sorry for the pathos. I just needed to vent.

mavie

Sorry to hear about that.

I had a talk with my wife last night after she brought up my recent questioning. I was hoping to take it slow but this conversation speed things up. I'll post the details later.

It's frustrating when you can't get someone to think objectively. Critical thinking and objectivity are not things to be feared! Yet, some people are ruled by emotion and tied to the status quo through a large support network. In my case, this support network probably helps with my wife's depression.

Hang in there, know that you are not alone.

bigmouth

Your friend seems to have learned the answers well and when reasoning fails reverts to anger and accusation for protection.Remember the investment he has placed in the org.
I've said this before, but a dub, be it a spouse or close friend, will be more likely to respond better to your emotions than your reasons. If you show yourself hurt, angry or betrayed the other wont feel like THEY are being attacked.
My born and raised JW wife left the org. when she realised how I felt, not by my reasoning.
Best wishes, Pete

freedomlover

u/b -

it is so frustrating and saddening to try to talk to someone you love so much and they just can't SEE IT! You never know what will happen in time from that conversation. I think our human instinct is to defend our actions and beliefs even if they aren't perfect. Let him think about things and digest it. the same with your wife. I was furious when my husband first told me he wanted out. I had to give myself some time and BREATHE and then I was willing to hear his reasons out. today, I'm out and we are doing great.

-freedomlover

garybuss

The more their behavior doesn't match their core beliefs, the more dogmatic and defensive they will be. It's predictable. Believing walkaways are the MOST defensive Witnesses I have ever encountered.

serendipity

Hi under believer, it's sad about your friend - but you may have planted a seed.

You can review this conversation and see where you need to tweak it a bit before you have it with your wife. For example, instead of asserting a point, you can say: " I read <insert scripture> and it seems to be saying....Is that how you understand it? " Or you could perhaps ask questions rather than making statements.

And you don't have to apologize. The board is here to support people.

geevee

Gary, that is the thing that is hard to figure out, why walkaways who are believing are so defensive.
I'd wonder if it is as this friend asserts, why he isn't there all the time. In JW speak, he is as dead as the rest of us, isn't he? Instead of listening and finding an excuse to be slack, the slacker judges the friend who is trying to lead him away from a big pile of crap.
Humans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

troubled mind

I had a very similar experience lately. A very good friend that is still "in" yet her and her husband see the hypocritical nature of the elders and complain often. When I began to offer some critical thinking about the "truth " she became defensive. My son spends time with her husband and was one of the reasons my son began to doubt the truth because her husbands attitude against the elders. Now if I bring anything up they spout out the usual Witless support nonsense . I really can not understand them , the husband smokes cigars and over indulges in alcohol .They think it is okay to beleive what you want on personal matters like that, but major doctrines like blood and holidays you can't question. I told her that I would feel like a hypocrit if I went to meeting acting like I supported everything being said there when I don't. She doesn't see it that way. She thinks they can be part of the congregation and yet believe and act how they want.

A Paduan

"they would go to the priests to get somebody stoned who needed it."

Well............at least he has a confidence about him

unique1

Hang in there. I don't think my hubby ever thought I would EVER be completely out, but 9 years later, here I am.

Conversation with friend leads to despair

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