DOES WTS own Kingdom Halls?- Challenge

by Amazing 12 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  Amazing

  Recently, the Bonham, Texas issue was discussed and comments were made that when the JWs lost the hall in 1986 that the Society then took Deed ownership of Kingdom Halls to prevent another case like Bonham from happening.

  I challenged this as not being universally true, because long after the Bonham case, I kept congregation files and we never made any deed transfers to the Society, nor change our non-profit association charter to make the Society a beneficiary in trust.

  What I did yesterday: I am frequently involved with courts, judges, and legal matters, property titles, etc. I checked on a Kingdom Hall at random near my office. I ran a deed search and the title came up as being owned by the local congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses, and no mention was made of the Watch Tower Society or any subsidiary corporations.

  Further, the Kingdom Hall in my analysis was purchased not long ago, but long after the Bonham case. I am running a deed chack of several other Kingdom Halls for additional verification of a pattern.

  Also, in my previous state of residence I ran a check on my previous Kingdom Hall where I was DA'd because a legal matter came up that could have resulted in a lawsuit, and I wanted to have the deed information so I could provide that to the plaintiffs and their attorney. In that case as well, the local congregation owned the hall and property, and again no mention was made in title of any Watch Tower ownership. This was also done long after the Bonham case.

  I contend that if any congregation has deeded its property to the Society, then this was done for other reasons than any direction from Brooklyn Bethel. In those cases where the Society makes substantial loans to build a new hall or remodel an older hall, they may be placed on the deed as a leinholder just like any bank or mortgage company would.

  IN one hall I was in and where I held the congregation files, we had two loans with the Society, one for original construction, and one for a significant remodel. Neither of these loans were ever recorded against the property, so were the congregation to default, the Society would have lost their investment. But, as it was, we paid the loans off, and did not require any more help form the Society. In that case we never deeded our property to the Society, and this was also after the Bonham case.

  If anyone still believes that Kingdom Halls have been deeded to the Society by Watch Tower request, then I challenge them to produce such documentation to demonstrate this. - Amazing
• 

  jayhawk1

  Thanks for the reliable information. I did not think the Kingdom Halls around here were owned by the society. I did know that the society was a lein holder on the one nearest me, but the Kingdom Hall still belonged to the congregation.

  "Hand me that whiskey, I need to consult the spirit."-J.F. Rutherford
• 

  Fredhall

  Hey All,

  That Kingdom Hall in Bonham, Texas will sink into hell.
• 

  ChuckD

  I thought that Witnesses believe that there is no Hell. Which is it?
• 

  messenger

  In the spring of 2000 a letter went out to all BOE regarding getting paperwork in order for property matters concerning the Kindom Hall. In each corp charter a paragraph was required to be inserted that reads as follows:

  "Upon the winding up and dissolution of the Corporation, after paying or adequately providing for the debts and obligations of the Corporation, the remaining assets shall be distributed to Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc."

  "If Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc, is not then in existence and exempt under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986 then said assets shall be distributed to any organization designated by the ecclesiastical Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses that is organized and operated for religious purposes and is a corporation exempt from federal income tax under Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code of 1986."

  So the title is not registered to any entity it is simple written into the charter of each congregation that ultimately when the building is sold the GB owns it lock stock and barrel. Pretty sweet deal, eh?
• 

  Amazing

  Thanks Messenger: This is what I expected and noted in earlier comments in the Bonham, Texas thread. But, in many cases, the Elders may have not followed through in naming the Society as beneficiary in trust.

  But, this is good to know, and if you can get a scanned copy of that letter, I would appreciate it. That letter was issued 5 years after I was DA'd. So, that fits with my recollection of matters in the time frame I served as Elder and Secretary.

  Also, this is good because if a major lawsuit results in any transfer of assets, and attacks beneficiary rights of the Society, it is conceivable that some ex-JW victim of molestation could end up owning a Kingdom Hall ... wouldn't that be interesting? - Amazing
• 

  dungbeetle

  That Boe letter may have gone out in the spring of 2000, but to my knowledge it implements no change in any policy. That policy was implemented many many years ago because I believe it is the case with my KH in California, and I was df'd in the late 1980's.

  I think there is a very good reason that nothing of this policy is reflected in the deed; the WT does not want anyone to know what they own, and I don't think they want the 'rank and file Jehovah's Witnesses' (how I hate that term) to know that they

  1)give money to the WT
  2)borrow that money back from the WT
  3)build a KH with it
  4)Pay off the loan plus substantial interest
  5)Turn the KH over to the WT!!!

  As an example of a personal nature, my mother-in-law has something like a half million dollars stashed away. In her will she leaves my cousin 5,000. Well, he whined and cried and talked her into giving him his 5,000 early. In return, tho, she got from him a document stating he would not accept or come forward to claim his 5,000. So if you look at her will, he 'gets' upon her death that 5,000. But in reality, he doesn't. If he tries, he is legally stopped from getting it, and besides my husband said that if he tried it he would shoot him. Period. Bang.

  So on hundreds, maybe thousands of legal documents it looks like JW own their own KH, and a diligent search by any curious JW would certainly make this out to be true...but in New York or Pennsylvania or wherever, there are also hundreds, maybe thousands of little pieces of paper that say.."ennnnhhh..owned by WT".

  I really really want to start my own religion.....

  I wonder if a search on KH recently SOLD would bring out any interesting info.

  dungbeetle...cleaning up the crap.
• 

  anewperson

  But again, those who want to fellowship don't have to own a BUILDING like that but can simply gather in a home, a free meeting place like some libraries offer, by internet, in a park or wherever.
  ----------------------------------------------------------------------
  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jahchristian
• 

  jst2laws

  Hello,
  Going along with Amazing I was surprised to see so much conviction that the WT owned KHs. Having for years and in several different congregations had to go through the process of updating the trustee's for the ownership of local property on which the KH was located I was wondering what I had overlooked that made the society the actual owners. From everything I have seen and done, they are owned locally by the congregation whether by trustees or incorporation with corporate officers. But it is possible I overlooked an ultimate default clause that it reverted to the society in the worst case scenario.

  I was involved in a congregation that was dissolved after we left. But the proceeds of the sale of the KH did not go to the WT society directly but to nearby KHs where the stranded "publisher" ended up.

  Personally I feel if we are looking for a scandal, we need to look somewhere other that KH ownership. I do not believe anyone in the organization is looking for property gain from Kingdom Halls. These are sincere people running things, victims themselves of their own teachings. You will fail if you are trying to prove they are in this for personal gain.
  Jst2laws
• 

  anewperson

  Just2laws, note that after the WTS loses cases over having shielded molestors to victims' damage, Judges must award damages and will do so based on what they believe is the WTS's DEGREE OF CONTROL OVER PERSONELL & PROPERTIES OWNED.

  If they look at deeds and the deeds seem to show the hall buildings are locally owned, then the Judges will tend to not award those to the victims. That would save the WTS some big dollars.

  Further in another discussion thread it's brought out that one possible upgoing move is the WTS may dump many if not all Circuit Overseers to not only save money but make it seem to Judges and others that the local kingdom halls have local autonomy due to no intervening layer of CO's which would indicate a Hierarchy.

  In reality the WTS would simply send in elders (even some of the ex-COs) who would be called local elders but in fact would be direct WTS appointees lording it over the local elders.

  Again, these things would be confusing to the Judges and Juries and give the WTS more wiggle room to challenge the big-dollar awards going against them, and if they due to such ploys can reduce their monetary losses even a little, that will help them.

  Their only problem is that the initial poster of this thread is a very sharp person. Please quite imputing wrong motives to him. I understand you're saying you just want to be fair even to the bully on the block, but after reading what I've explained maybe you'll see what some of the other concerns are.

  I think Silentlambs needs to read this too and to warn Anderson & Reinhardt legal firm of some that the WTS may be taking moves to mask their culpability and shield their assets even more than the coorperate restructuring they undertook in early 2001, still another "shuffle game" tactic on the part of the WTS and its attorneys.

  Peace