The Watchtower tells the truth...

by teejay 30 Replies latest jw friends

  • teejay
    teejay

    ... sometimes.

    As distasteful as that truth is, it is one that may not go down easily for some who have nauseous memories of the WTS. What does one do if an obvious truth is found in a hated source? Is the truth's power diminished somehow? Is the truth less truthful? On the other hand, if an esteemed and cherished source that is normally reliable is found to be untruthful, will that make a difference to the truth-seeker? Will we find 'truth' in untruth?

    The posters on JW.com comprise a unique demographic. It's makeup is so narrow and limited in scope that it does not come close to reflecting any subculture of any group of people anywhere. Imo, we don't even faithfully provide a glimpse into the mind of an average exJW -- only that an exJW can be almost any sort of person. Still, since we are human beings (by and large) certain behaviors that are on display here can be used to gain insight into human thinking and behavior on a wider scale.

    In doing research for this post, I revisited three threads on JW.com: COMF's Colored Afro-American Black Negro People, my the "racism" of Emyrose?, and Farkel's Matthew 25. I will not rehash old threads or conjure up old, bitter feelings. I only used these three since I'm very familiar with the first two and the third is one of Farkel's most recent. Any number of other threads could be used to make my point. My thesis is worthy of consideration because it applies to more than just these three threads. More than that, the phenomenon I'm about to highlight happens, not just here on JW.com but in real life, and not just in real life, but all the time.

    In Colored, Emmy and Shelby carried on a very spirited, respectful, and more importantly, useful discussion since they were at opposite ends of an issue that is significant to many Americans. Since I'd been a participant in real life discussions that centered on some of the exact same themes they covered, I enjoyed the back and forth between them but was confident that at its conclusion, two things would be found true:

    1. They would both make solid points, ably defending their respective positions, and,

    2. They would NOT come to an agreement--there would be no happy meeting-in-the-middle conclusion.

    Holders of their opposing views could engage in the same dialog today, and the result would be the same. It's like the Arabs and the Jews--eternally at odds.

    In spite of the fact that both spoke equal amounts of truth, the board generally lauded Shelby's views; Emmy's were generally condemned. Separating their personal view of either Emmy or Shelby became impossible for some, as many readers' perception of the individual participant tinged their view of what the participant said. Simply put, WHO said it became more important than WHAT was said.

    That was why I started racism. I wanted to help some see past what came to be Emmy's emotional outbursts, hoping to focus attention on the important truths laying clearly on the surface of her words, to listen to WHAT she said. Simply put, before things got ugly, much of what Emmy said was unadulterated truth, but since it came from a source deemed objectionable, the powerful truths she voiced were mostly ignored--not given a first thought, much less a second.

    As far as I'm concerned, that is the greatest tragedy. Events conspired to place JW.com board members at the feet of a rare opportunity--to discover a couple of important keys to deciphering race relations in America. The diamond ring of high value offered for free was rejected, however, due to the way in which the diamond was set. True, grown folk should be able to see beyond the surface, but that is my point here; some can't, and it's everybody's loss.

    Yet the question persists: Were the truths she spoke less true since SHE was the one who spoke them? If one is held in low esteem, whether an Emmy, a Bigboi, or a teejay, is it reasaonble to conclude that nothing good can ever come from them? Is EVERYTHING coming from one held in low esteem 'drivel'?

    At the other end of the spectrum in terms of prestige on JW.com, few enjoy a higher position than Farkel. After scanning over his recent commentary on Matthew 25 thread, I posted a concise analysis to Englishman. It was not meant to be a slight although Farkel may have taken it as one. My interpretation and accompanying question was offered seriously.

    All of Farkel's commentaries that I've read are quite good; they are just very hard for me to read since they focus their attention on the Watchtower, a magazine for which I've come to have almost no respect. I never got an answer from Englishman. I am left to assume that my 'take' on Farkel's commentary was accurate, though in a nutshell.

    My point is: Should the opinions and expressed thoughts of those deemed at the upper end of any collection of people (whether at JW.com, the WTS, the Republican Party, et al.) be given more weight than the opinions and viewpoints coming from those considered at the other end of the scale?

    Isn't there a third, and preferred alternative for genuine truth seekers? Shouldn't each comment, viewpoint, and opinion be made to stand on it's own merits, regardless of its source? I'm fairly certain that I know how loyal JWs would answer if you posed the question to them relative to the Governing Body's public views as published in the Watchtower. I wonder if YOU would answer the same relative to your own station in life. Do YOU question everything you read, or do you accept some things if it comes from the 'right' source?

  • Pathofthorns
    Pathofthorns

    ...pretty good

    Path

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    To me, saying that "The Watchtower tells the truth, sometimes" is like saying "This dip is made with peanut butter and baby poop. Care to try it?"

    I'll pass, thanks.

    There is sufficient historical evidence for the UNreliability of the Watchtower that it does not merit consideration as a legitimate source of information.

    What Watchtower publications CAN be relied upon for, however, is proof that the WTB&TS and Jehovah's Witnesses are nothing that they pretend to be.

    "I wish to see, and I mean this most sincerely, I wish to see the last King strangled with the guts of the last Priest." - Voltaire
  • bigboi
    bigboi
    My point is: Should the opinions and expressed thoughts of those deemed at the upper end of any collection of people (whether at JW.com, the WTS, the Republican Party, et al.) be given more weight than the opinions and viewpoints coming from those considered at the other end of the scale?

    No, they shouldn't. IMO, that goes against the whole idea of a board meant for the free exchange of ideas. Sure, there are going to be disagreements, but because a person disagrees with you doesn't mean that the person is lazy or is part of some agenda to discredit you or some other far fetched conspiracy theory. It just means they have a different point of view than you do that's all. I wonder why that's so hard for some ppl here to understand.

    It's really just a few posters here that act this way. It seems to me that they want to use the board to advance an agenda or something. This board can be useful in presenting info to JW's and introducing them to supportive dialouge and ppl who are willing and able to help them through some diffiult circumstances. However, that's not neccessarily the only use for this board. PPl come here mostly to goof off and interact with one another. IT should be all inclusive in my opinion and discussions should include everyone. Everybody's opinion should be valued and none should be chided because of thiers but helped to see other points of view.

    ONE....

    bigboi

    "life's a bitch a with a g-string and a twelve pack of Busch."

  • teejay
    teejay

    So, Nathan, if I understand you correctly, it's your opinion that nothing good can EVER come from ANY Watchtower magazine. Cool.

    tj

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas
    if I understand you correctly, it's your opinion that nothing good can EVER come from ANY Watchtower magazine.


    Yes, TeeJay, that's my opinion.

    How would you pick between the garbage in there to find something trustworthy?

    What's the expiration date on light?

    If you're talking to a demonstrated compulsive liar, how do you decide which of his statements to believe without LOTS of independant corroboration?

    The Watchtower is not entirely without value. It is high grade celluose fiber, and would be suitable at the bottom of a birdcage, for wrapping a carp, or for starting a fire.

    "I wish to see, and I mean this most sincerely, I wish to see the last King strangled with the guts of the last Priest." - Voltaire
  • teejay
    teejay

    Nate (may i call you "Nate"?),

    You said, "The Watchtower is not entirely without value. It is high grade celluose fiber, and would be suitable at the bottom of a birdcage, for wrapping a carp, or for starting a fire."

    Now that's sad...

    ... and a bit mean-spirited, don't you think?

    It's funny as hell, but it's STILL sad! To paraphrase Chris Rock when ribbing O.J., "I'm not saying you're right, but I understand!!"

    peace,
    tj

  • AlanF
    AlanF

    I think that this is one of your better posts, teejay. However, as with most of them you don't go into the nitty gritty details of your topic, but dance around them with nearly meaningless generalities. The generalities are simply your own opinion and interpretation of the events you merely allude to. So for anyone to agree with the main points of your post, they would have to agree with your opinions which lead to the generalities. For example, you claim that much of what Emyrose said in one post was "unadulterated truth", but this is merely your own opinion, which you implicitly present as established fact. Since I don't agree with your assessments of the three threads you mentioned, I can't agree with some of your opinions in your first post here.

    As for people posting views and having them listened to, anyone is free to post what they please, within rather wide limits. Similarly, others are free to accept or reject these views and to post their own. In the view of the community of posters, some gradually come to have respect and others don't. This is because each reader evaluates posts on an individual basis, and each one comes to a conclusion based on experience with other posters. Thus we find that Maximus has become well respected, and You Know is seen as a clown. In other words, on a mostly faceless discussion board, your reputation is based almost exclusively on your words. Put out a lot of meaningless banter and you'll be seen as someone who might be entertaining but can usually be ignored. Put out a lot of nonsense and you'll get the reputation of Fredhall. Put out solid posts that show that a lot of research, thought and good experience is behind them, and you'll get the reputation of Maximus, hawkaw or other solid posters. Respect is earned or lost on your own words; it is not a right that comes merely because you exist.

    You're quite right that some sources that are generally poor can sometimes issue gems of truth. It's equally true that some sources that are generally reliable can sometimes issue garbage. One must also keep in mind, when evaluating the overall reliability of a source, what the circumstances of the presentation of information are. Does the information appear in an informal email that is hurriedly put out? Or does it appear on a scholarly email discussion list? Does it appear on an informal discussion board like this one, or does it appear in literature that the publishers claim is backed by God?

    After some source of information has established a reputation, it is perfectly normal for people to tend to accept or reject new information based on an already-established reputation. Even though a discredited source might often speak good things, why waste time listening to it unless you have a good reason to? You already know that you'll have to do your own research in order to have a good chance that the information is reliable. Similarly, why would you doubt information from a source you had already established as reliable, unless a bit of new information just didn't sit right, or another reliable source gave you reason to investigate? Of course, an intelligent reader will always try to evaluate the reliability of all information that comes his or her way, no matter who says it.

    In terms of posters you mentioned, I long ago established that Farkel was generally reliable. Not perfect, not by a long shot, but good enough that my first reaction is that he's probably got something good to say and so I'll read his posts. Similarly I long ago established that Shelby is unreliable and so I rarely read anything she posts. Emyrose came along a few months ago and I gradually concluded that she is emotionally infantile -- not based on knowing her as a person, but based exclusively on her writings on this board.

    So when Emyrose and Shelby had a discussion, people didn't just out-of-the-blue decide what reputation each had, and then base their acceptance exclusively on that, but had decided whether each was reliable based on many previous posts and then used that determination along with the latest words to decide which one they would go along with. As usual, teejay, you've inverted cause and effect.

    You seem to labor under the mistaken idea that all ideas are equal merely because someone decides to espouse them. Well they are not. Young-earth creationism is a ridiculous idea no matter who espouses it. So is Flat-earthism. So is the idea that Jehovah's Witness leaders speak for God. So is the idea that Shelby speaks for God. I need not elaborate on the evidence for my statements here.

    Now, if you want to start a good, solid discussion on race relations in America, go right ahead. Take the lead in showing just how such a discussion should go. If you think Emyrose had good things to say but that these were rejected because of her infantile presentation, you have a fine opportunity to set matters straight. You could point out what you think were the good points in her discussion, and remove all stain of having them rejected merely because of who was presenting them. Are you up to the challenge of getting specific? Or will you remain in the sea of meaningless generalities?

    As for Farkel's focus on The Watchtower, what do you think this discussion board is all about? Race relations in America? Or Jehovah's Witnesses? This is a real problem for you teejay -- understanding what focus is all about. That's why your posts are generally fuzzy and unfocused, and don't usually say anything. At least in this one you manage a few specifics, as shown in your summary:

    : My point is: Should the opinions and expressed thoughts of those deemed at the upper end of any collection of people (whether at JW.com, the WTS, the Republican Party, et al.) be given more weight than the opinions and viewpoints coming from those considered at the other end of the scale?

    Generally, yes, for the reasons I've explained above: People establish their reputations, not out of the blue, but by what they do and say. People with good or bad reputations usually deserve them. This does not imply that the opinions of anyone should be viewed as absolute truth or should not be questioned.

    : Isn't there a third, and preferred alternative for genuine truth seekers? Shouldn't each comment, viewpoint, and opinion be made to stand on it's own merits, regardless of its source?

    Of course they should stand on their own merits. But would you listen to the content of a speech given by a street bum standing on a street-corner soapbox? Probably not. You have your own filters for who you listen to, and I'm fairly sure that you filter out street bums. It's the same anywhere else. You're creating a false dilemma here, teejay.

    : I'm fairly certain that I know how loyal JWs would answer if you posed the question to them relative to the Governing Body's public views as published in the Watchtower. I wonder if YOU would answer the same relative to your own station in life. Do YOU question everything you read, or do you accept some things if it comes from the 'right' source?

    Again you're creating a false dilemma. Of course I question everything I read, and of course I accept some things that come from the 'right' source. So do most readers of this board. In practice, I can't go back to basics and research every little thing that anyone says. There isn't time in a day. Further, there isn't any point, except in a small number of things that I deem important enough to spend my time at. Do you question everything that comes your way? Of course not. Do you question if men landed on the moon in 1969? I hope not! But why do you accept that? Were you there? Couldn't it be that the U.S. government has conspired with Hollywood to produce films 'proving' this false claim? No? Why not? Why do you just blindly go along with what these demonstrably lying officials and producers tell you?

    The fact is that in real life, we accept huge amounts of information based on faith in our life's experiences, which include our opinion about the reliability of what others tell us. When we buy fruit at the grocery store, we accept the implicit guarantee that no one has injected the fruit with cyanide. Why do we accept such things? Because to do otherwise would be to make life impossible to live.

    So it is with 'life' on a discussion board. We determine who we feel is reliable and who isn't. We do it by reading their words and thinking about them. Eventually we form mental filters that let in or filter out posters we know. That's just the way human beings work.

    AlanF

  • Nathan Natas
    Nathan Natas

    Teejay asked,

    Nate (may i call you "Nate"?),

    No, you may call me "Brother Natas."

    You dont mind if I call you "Ted Jaracz," do you?

    but seriously... just don't call me late for dinner!

    Then you wondered,

    ... and a bit mean-spirited, don't you think?

    Absolutely! This sheep has shaved his wool and sharpened his herbivoire teeth, and can place urine with accuracy to 30 paces! Beware! Danger! Danger Will Robinson!!

    I figure you gotta take your shots as God reveals them to ya. I'm not here to play Priest or Guide to anyone.

  • teejay
    teejay

    Nate... er... Brother Natas,

    If you don't mind, please don't call me "Ted Jaracz." I saw a T J in a post not long ago and, because of the context, almost fainted. I've never met the man, but have been able to observe him up close on two separate occasions as well as hear a first-hand story about him from a former bethelite. Connecting the dots, I don't like the man. I think he's a jerk, making him quite unlike me.

    This sheep has shaved his wool and sharpened his herbivoire teeth, and can place urine with accuracy to 30 paces!

    This brings to mind a vivid memory:

    I was at the Dallas zoo 20-sum years ago. From about fifteen feet away a lion pissed on me. I was 'pissed' but decided against any foolhardy act of revenge. It was about an hour before sunset -- feeding time -- and the animals were a bit restless. I was happy about the concrete and steel, hemming them all in. I was more than happy to suffer thru the lion's brazenness.

    I had been drawn to his cage in the first place by the roaring that was heard probably miles away. Years later, when I heard the Public Talk mention that the source of a lion's roar could not be pinpointed by the animal that would soon be his dinner, I could only agree. It was quite a sound I heard that late afternoon, unlike any other I've ever heard.

    I will keep my eye on you from hence forth, BROTHER Natas.

Share this

Google+
Pinterest
Reddit