Overheard at the June 4 2006 Watchtower Study

by under_believer 20 Replies latest jw friends

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  blondie

  Terms for elders:

  OVERseers

  Princes

  Chieftains

  Glorious ones

  Mighty men (heard this one for at least 7 elders told to them by the CO; this CO also told the elders that they received more holy spirit than the rank and file. If the non-anointed have the same amount of holy spirit as the anointed, how can the elders have more holy spirit than the rank and file?

  ***

  w96 6/15 p. 31 Questions From Readers ***

  The Lord’s spirit is available in equal portions to both classes, and knowledge and understanding are offered equally to both, with equal opportunities for absorbing it."

  There was a day that they were called "servants." Elders stopped being servants to the congregation in 1972 and became OVERseers instead.

  ***

  w72 1/1 p. 20 par. 38 Appointed Elders to Shepherd the Flock of God ***

  If there are enough elders, they should be appointed to be congregation servant, assistant congregation servant, Bible study servant, Watchtower study servant and Theocratic Ministry School servant.

  Blondie
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  IW

  Hi Brant,

  I sympathize with you cause I too have met elders and circuit overseers who were slime. Maybe my experience in the Org. is unusual I don't know, but I have met more elders who were sincere than otherwise. Sure they were misled but for the most part they truly believed that what they did was for the good of the friends. Many worked hard and sacrificed time with their families to visit the sick or research a problem for an upcoming meeting or meet with publishers who were having serious problems.

  There's hypocrites and liars and there's downright slime in the elder bodies but there are also those who love and who really try to be the best elder/brother they can be. Sure they do the Watchtower's bidding but that's because they believe just as many of us truly believed. It does not make sense to think that Ray Franz and Barbara Anderson are the last man and woman in the Org. hierarchy who are honest and sincere.

  IW
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  Fleshybirdfodder

  I think most elders that really try to do everything that is expected of them (especially if they have a family) eventually suffer from burnout, depression etc... and then suffer criticism. I don't discount that many are sincere. But those that really are I've found usually have to step down eventually because of the crap they have to deal with, especially things that bother their conscience... ie. being forced to ask ridiculously intimate questions at judicial meetings, or giving parts like the one that underbeliever mentioned. I really don't think anyone can be sincere and stay a dyed in the wool "company man."
  

  Just my thoughts.

  FBF
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  jschwehm

  Where does the bible say any man gets double honor? We can't honor mothers on mothers day, fathers on fathers day, or anyone on their birthday because it's putting one person above another. JW's can't stand for the bride at the wedding because it gives her too much honor but the elders get double honor. Isn't that people worship too?

  Good point! Jeff S.
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  SixofNine

  "It does not make sense to think that Ray Franz and Barbara Anderson are the last man and woman in the Org. hierarchy who are honest and sincere."

  And yet that is exactly what the indisputable physical facts show to be true.
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  under_believer

  My opinion is that there are a lot of really sincere elders. I think at this point, with one or two exceptions, the people in the Organization (including most of the people on the Governing Body) are victims of something that was started a long time ago and which now moves under its own power. Yes: I believe that there are even sincere Governing Body members--there were before, weren't there?
  
  Much like the Matrix, the Organization has taken on a life of its own, a sentience of sorts that is greater than any of the people that belong to it.
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  What-A-Coincidence

  I personally think who ever is left in the borg are all vicitms. There is no way in the world you can analyze WT History and support it sincerely. That goes against all reason. Look at us? That is where we were was it not?

  The WT is crumbling right now ... these are definately the last days of the WT.

  - wac XbetheliteXlder
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  thecarpenter

  I think I have to side with IW, there are many good people who are elders and are honorable people. The scriptures have said that those who preside in a fine way should be reckoned worthy of double honor. I think many mean well but are indoctrinated with Society viewpoints that are a bit extreme in nature. I think the fault lies more with the societies interpretation of the bible than with these men. I was disfellowshipped without a written or scriptural charge, because of my stand against the org regarding the NGO Partnership thing. the whole body of elders was aware of the situation. Didn't matter. I have dozens of friends that were elders, and not ONE has contacted me ONE time to either find out what happened or to offer condolences.

  They couldn't call you uninformed because they are instructed not to call disfellowshipped ones and you know that. The problem lies again with the societies interpretation of how to treat disfellowshipped ones. You accused them of worshipping the society and I think that is incorrect. They are instructed to trust the society even if that goes against their better judgment or common sense, and many do just that. Plus they feel that this is what Jehovah wants them to do so they are obedient to a fault (even overlooking real mistakes and unnecessary hardships pushed on the brothers)

  .I have also run into immature and weak men who were appointed elders and it is very difficult to remove them. Many elders have confided in me that certain appointments were mistakes. Some brothers reached out for the office, put on their best behavior when in the hall and also became chummy chummy with some of the elders and were wrongly appointed. Also their were case of nepotism and so on. That happens everywhere, in the business world, other churches, even in families with children.... people are people.

  The society isn't always upfront or honest about what they do (UN NGO fiasco for example) but what can you do. Sometimes it is better to step away for a while.
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  Joe Grundy

  Some brothers reached out for the office, put on their best behavior when in the hall and also became chummy chummy with some of the elders and were wrongly appointed. Also their were case of nepotism and so on. That happens everywhere, in the business world, other churches, even in families with children.... people are people.

  As an outsider, this is one of my biggest problems with WTBTS.

  All organisations make mistakes and while they may be criticised because the mistakes were avoidable they can be viewed with some tolerance because making mistakes happens.

  But WTBTS, by claiming that it is led by divine authority (and more, that it exclusively has divine authority) and by controlling its members on that basis, cannot ask for or expect the same tolerance. If it were to admit that sometimes it made mistakes it would open the way to independent thinking and this would no doubt lead to the sort of schisms and breakaway 'reformed' groups that most other sects have experienced. Instead (it seems to me) it continues to insist that it is the only true organisation.

  WTBTS cannot have it both ways.
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  Lady Liberty

  Of course those are probably the kinds that will end up eventually drifting away, and the Company Men who really feel like they deserve "double honor" will shake their heads and wonder why such great brothers resigned and fell away.

  Dear Under_Believer,

  This was EXACTLY what I was thinking!! Their humility is a wonderful quality. And Jehovah will draw those to him when the time is right and they're hearts are open.

  Sincerely,

  Lady Liberty